Wizard of OZ "WOZ" thoughts

Gorf69

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I think most of us have seen enough of the prototype to have an idea on the game play.
I would like to know your opinions on what type of game you think this may be. I am a novice and to look at the layout I can't get a good feel for the flow. Will this be a fast game or a slow catch and shoot style ect.

Appreciate your thoughts.
 
I think what we have seen in the prototype shows some of the major design aspects of the game, but the overall still remains to be seen.

That said, I think it looks cool to me, although I don't normally like widebody machines.

From the videos they have posted, I thought it seems slow, but it was a whitewood, unknown finish on the PF, and early prototype. Who knows what angle it was set at too.

I hope this does very well for JJP.

I want to like it.


Chris
 
Prototypes mean nothing of a game in my opinion. I played a whitewood of Transformers before I played the final version and almost didn't bother playing the final version. A product really gets its polish near the end and it is hard to base anything off of "pre-polished" states.
 
woz

i am longtime pin player as well as op and collector,
i see
1. a theme that if done at all should have been done 20 to 40 yrs ago
2. widebodys are rarely a hit
3. a game that is overpriced,
4, and how hard is the parts service / distribution going to be?

i see one word with this
'flop"
 
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Wow, way to be optomistic, LOL.

2. widebodys are rarely a hit

Yeah, because Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, Star Trek The Next Generation, Roadshow, Judge Dredd, and Demolition Man didn't sell at all.

4, and how hard is the parts service / distribution going to be?

They are using almost all Williams parts (other than the custom stuff) so it should not be that big an issue really.


Chris
 
i am longtime pin player as well as op and collector,
i see
1. a theme that if done at all should have been done 20 to 40 yrs ago
2. widebodys are rarely a hit
3. a game that is overpriced,
4, and how hard is the parts service / distribution going to be?

i see one word with this
'flop"

Glad you are not my business advisor. I'm a longtime pin player (40+ years), sort-of-operator (OK, 1 game out), pin repair person, and restrained collector. What I see in WOZ is:

1. a theme that is universally known and family-friendly

2. a widebody that lets you fit more in a feature-packed game, and which may be a huge hit like TZ, IJ, STTNG, etc. that came before it (thx for saying it first, SilverU!)

3. A game that seems bargain-priced compared to the alternatives, given all of the detailed and new features packed into it: LCD display with tons of graphics and *real* movie clips instead of fuzzy orange animations; another awesome sound package from Chris Granner with killer music coming out of a decent sound system, plus headphone jacks; really neat not-off-the-shelf-and-glued-on toys like a custom spinning house, a melting witch, enchanted forest pop bumpers, a green-lit wizard's face, a crystal ball, a flying monkey ball lock; very cool pf features like 2 mini-pf's including a challenging witch's castle, a pop bumper with targets in an outlane, some interesting diverters and VUKs, 5 flippers in total; one of the best rule sets in a pinball game ever to date, along with a ton of pf inserts and lcd graphics to go with them; and a very attractive hand-painted graphics package.

4. Use of standard WMS parts and a simpler interconnect system that avoids miles of wire bundles, plus proper use of LEDs and a control/processing system based on modern technology, all to increase reliability and ease of service.


The LEs have been sold out for a while. The real test of success will be how many regular versions will sell once the game is out there and being played. I predict a lot, even at the higher price level. The comparison of what you'll get in WOZ as compared to a recent Stern LE model at a similar price point is silly--WOZ will look like a ridiculous bargain.


As for the original question, I suspect the closest parallel in shot flow/gameplay will be Twilight Zone, but without the horrible pops by an outlane and with more cool combos and FAR deeper and better-integrated rules and graphics and sound... Given Keefer's previous programming, I expect that you can play a 'catch, control, and aim' type of game, but that some modes will give you lots of points for continuous flow shooting and fast combos.
 
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Woz

my thoughts,
likes- new pin company coming online
- good classic theme
- I like wide body pins so yes to the WB
- good that is has williams parts
- flat panel instead of DMD
- seems to have lots if good toys, featues and game play
- good art, and graphics

dislikes- dont like idea of pay now, get later for something that doesnt exist
- dont like that delivery date keeps moving back
- new system, unprooven

So bottom line is I like it, havnt put money down on one and they are all spoken for allthough several of the dealers still have them available. Id like to wait until they start shipping then poissibly get one at that time. If not Im sure there will be a bunch of them on the used market soon after the release. The price of $7500 isnt high but as high as the LE stern machines so I dont see a problem with price.
 
I see.....

One in my game room, because I preordered and am 90% paid already!



Kidding aside, I feel very fortunate to be getting one of these. I plan on having an unboxing party and sharing with friends and local players.
 
my thoughts,
likes- new pin company coming online
- good classic theme
- I like wide body pins so yes to the WB
- good that is has williams parts
- flat panel instead of DMD
- seems to have lots if good toys, featues and game play
- good art, and graphics

dislikes- dont like idea of pay now, get later for something that doesnt exist
- dont like that delivery date keeps moving back
- new system, unprooven

So bottom line is I like it, havnt put money down on one and they are all spoken for allthough several of the dealers still have them available. Id like to wait until they start shipping then poissibly get one at that time. If not Im sure there will be a bunch of them on the used market soon after the release. The price of $7500 isnt high but as high as the LE stern machines so I dont see a problem with price.

JJP clearly set up the LE pre-orders to generate seed money for the start-up. Lots of expenses, even if some employees may accept deferred compensation; component suppliers/mfrs. want to be paid up front. The very earliest projected mfg. date was end of 2011 (around now); this was moved back once to a mid-March start of assembly, games should start shipping in April.

The real deal is, anyone will be able to buy a WOZ after they've seen it in action, for $6500. No risk at all. The pre-ordered LEs just get some bonuses like emerald green legs/bar/siderails, a topper, numbered LE plate, shaker motor, and optical glass. I do like the decision that regular and LE games will have thye same gameplay features and rules; the only thing added to the LEs are cosmetic enhancements. I really dislike Stern's approach of adding mechs and new rules to their LEs, making them play differently.
 
All of my game operator friends have told me they will NOT be buying this machine because the price is too high.

Then your "game operator friends" are clueless because they don't even have to buy the pin since Jack will lease it to them. As Jack puts it, it would almost be impossible for operators to not make money on one of his pins.
 
* The WOZ theme is timeless and a good choice

* It's obvious this game is not vaporware, compared to the offerings by people such as Jpop and others. WOZ will definitely be produced.

* It's also obvious that JJP is going to set a new standard for what a "LE" game should have, and his version really warrants the premium money spent (like non-glare glass - an add-on that based on current prices is something quite valuable)

* As to whether operators will be using these games, generally pinball is not a profit center so JJP's offerings may not change that much -- however I still contend whoever starts networking their machines and ties them to the Internet for creative types of competition, will buck that trend.

* I expect the game to be similar in play to TZ based on the layout. I have a few concerns that we'll have to see how they turn out the tornado shot looks to be either too easy or too repetitive. I think the pop bumper in the outlane is is cool, but the end targets will get easily broken (nobody else seems to think so, so we'll have to see if I'm right if they don't make changes).

* I am not at all excited about the LCD thing - they're basically using the rejected jpop idea that was turned down in favor of the P2K reflected-monitor orientation, which has proven itself to be really cool and much more versatile.

* My main concern is about the technology and internet connectivity. I really think the game's ability to be networked and share information with a central server for league play is a really important feature. If they don't include something like that - the ability to tabulate stats, I'll be really disappointed and consider the game 'retro' pinball and not a modern/innovative game.

* I have pre-ordered the LE version. If it does not have internet connectivity, I may resell my game rather than take delivery. That's how strongly I feel it's a bad decision if they don't embrace new technology.

My biggest concern is whether or not the game breaks new ground, or like all the other pinball manufacturers out today, is just a rehash of the same old stuff. The game looks like a re-hash, but if it has more configurable options and flexible features and has networking, it could have a lot more potential. We'll just have to wait and see.

* I predict the game's value to collectors is going to come down to how deep the ruleset is. If they do things right, WOZ should make TSPP look like a bagatelle game, with so many features that some people may never find every mode. They should also make ongoing firmware revisions, or possibly even alternate firmware versions which repurpose the game rules. Something as simple as that would dramatically increase the value of the game for collectors.
 
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All of my game operator friends have told me they will NOT be buying this machine because the price is too high.

The standard pricing for this will be $1 per game, 6/$5, which should make up for the price difference. Free bill validator for operators too (at least on the LEs). Time will tell if the game, layout, lcd, etc. will attract players at that price level; I think it might.

As for needing wifi to avoid being considered 'retro,' well, I just disagree. Pins are primarily mechanical games. I think adding a modern display that can handle video and full-res animation is 'modern' enough. Curious--are all current Stern games also 'retro' pinball?
 
I have no dog in this race, but I think wifi connectivity would be cool but not a necessity. If I were getting one, it definitely wouldn't deter me if it wasn't there.

The only problem I see with using it for league or stats, is not every machine will be setup the same, therefore I don't think it would be fair for competitive purposes. It would be nice though for say something like automatic updates. This way machines could be updated whether the op feels like doing it or not.

I think the game will probably play well and be designed well. They have a great team of designers put together and seem to be taking the time necessary to build a nice pin. Personally, the theme kills it for me. Not saying I won't put quarters into one if I see one, or play it at another collector's house. I just don't see myself ever purchasing one for my home.
 
I have no dog in this race, but I think wifi connectivity would be cool but not a necessity. If I were getting one, it definitely wouldn't deter me if it wasn't there.

I think most people would not appreciate how cool it could be until a platform was available which could be exploited. If third parties could host their own servers to tabulate stats, you'd see a ton of amazing features. I know personally, I could create some very interesting variations on gameplay and tabulation and scoring.

The only problem I see with using it for league or stats, is not every machine will be setup the same, therefore I don't think it would be fair for competitive purposes.

I would expect the game to report its config settings, or at least have a number of preset config templates that can be loaded and confirmed to be in place for certain types of league play. I agree, however, we're not really talking about anything real serious. BUT, it's possible for the game to have some checks and balances to offset cheating (like an accelerometer and other sensors to tell if the glass is off and the game is level, etc. It could even include a small webcam to capture gameplay). Obviously multi-location competitions would have to center around the honor system in some cases, but I see more of a small voluntary league system that is implemented among people who have an established level of trust and no desire to cheat. That's on the home-level. On the commercial level, an operator could have a series of goals that are centered around one machine that is in a specific location and monitored (i.e. nobody can take the glass off) and in that case, for example, a bar owner could offer drink specials or rewards for people playing the game and achieving certain goals. The game would report the stats for each game to a central server and the standings could be displayed on the LCD screen. This would encourage people to play more games and compete for prizes offered by the operator. The operator could set the thresholds and goals and prizes himself.

And what's the hottest trend in coin-op? Redemption games. With the ability to have the machines networked you could turn a pinball machine into a redemption game.

I think the game will probably play well and be designed well. They have a great team of designers put together and seem to be taking the time necessary to build a nice pin. Personally, the theme kills it for me. Not saying I won't put quarters into one if I see one, or play it at another collector's house. I just don't see myself ever purchasing one for my home.

I think you underestimate the theme. It's a good theme. It appeals to a wide demographic - it may not be as "manly" as the "transformers" or "AC/DC" or "Iron Man" but it has a broader appeal, plus, if the gameplay is really good, the theme won't even matter (see The Shadow, Judge Dread, etc.) In the long run, the theme will only go so far unless the theme is something that is timeless, and WOZ fits that category.
 
I think you underestimate the theme. It's a good theme. It appeals to a wide demographic - it may not be as "manly" as the "transformers" or "AC/DC" or "Iron Man" but it has a broader appeal, plus, if the gameplay is really good, the theme won't even matter (see The Shadow, Judge Dread, etc.) In the long run, the theme will only go so far unless the theme is something that is timeless, and WOZ fits that category.

Yeah I wasn't trying to knock the theme as not having broad appeal, just that it doesn't appeal to me personally.

I hope that JJP hit it out of the park on this one, so people give them the motivation and support needed to continue.
 
It'd be a bit easier to get around the theme if there was any chance that these things will come down to a reasonable price anytime in the near future...but it won't, and I will likely never see one in public play in D/FW area. There's a lot of interesting things about it...but again...what are the odds I will EVER see one of these in person, or more than one time?

I don't hobnob with the pinball rich-boys around here, and don't really have a desire to for anything other than seeing them at tournaments where they get to brag about what new machines they just bought NIB while I put up the highest score of the night. :|
 
JPop's MG is on track, and is not vaporware.

What evidence do you have of this? He's already said he's not even capable of initially producing the 40 units he's already taken pre-orders for. The team that he has assembled seem to not have any experience producing production pinball games. They've only done one-off stuff. And all the pre-order people have apparently agreed to keep quiet about the progress of the game. That all sounds like a recipe for vaporware to me. However, if you have more substantive information, please share it with us.

According to PinballNews.com coverage of Expo:

[JPop]" said pinball needs a new groove, so he worked with new people to create his Magic Girl prototype.John recalled how initial news of his Magic Girl plans leaked out and how he "sold" 40 games in 2 days, although he will not be making that many initially. With a new system for building them from scratch, John said there had been a lot of issues so far, but he had a crew lined up and he was convinced everyone is clamouring for something new."
 
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