WHERE IS THE Wizard Of OZ PIN BEING BUILT?

[jpl_812]

The led's could certainly be made to look like they are fading to a point, and the nature of them could be incorporated into a pin to make it look great. Using techniques like PWM is the right approach but there are limitations. Your eyes can see flicker up to a few hundred cycles a second so you can modulate the led's fast enough to not see the flicker, until the perceived frequency is down to something you can see. Lots of ways to work around it though. Like Lindsey brought up you can use multicolor leds, shift the color to add brownish will make it look like an incandescent cooling down.
One of the circuit changes would have to be around the lamp matrix. Right now you have to account for the matrix strobing, that's an issue for for getting good PWM, you don't have control of a single lamp often enough. So the matrix has to run at a higher frequency to get good control of the lamps, the max frequency of the matrix is going to be limited by how fast you can switch the load of the harness wiring and lamps, also limited by the driver transistor but plenty of parts are around that would do the trick there.
All in all, leds can be used to look great, but they will need hardware and software changes to really take advantage of. The light dimming and slow turn on / off can be worked around, but I think creatative use of the led features will make that a moot point. You like it now because that's how they were used, new effects like the multi color will change the way you think they should look. If led's go in, it won't take long before you think old games look funny with that slow lamp reaction time.

 

[Lindsey]

Thanks for the correction guys. Did a little research... so it seems like as long as pulse width modulation is used then LEDs will work fine. The question is will they go that far? LEDs still cost a lot more than incandescents.

I'm sure that's the sole reason Stern are not using LEDs today. They're more expensive. Even with their current hardware they could be doing some cool LED effects. In fairness they are using LEDs sparingly but I think their use of them is total crap, personally.

Lindsey, have you seen LEDs in a T2 in person? From what I understand it solves the ghosting issue but the LEDs still appear to be turning on and off instead of slowing fading in and out.

You're right. The new code doesn't solve the instant on/off issue. Just the ghosting issue.

 

[quses]

There are a number of obvious technologies that pinball manufacturers for the most part have ignored, and that's a shame.

Pinball to me, is as much a "show" as it is a game, and a big part of the show is lights, sound and music, and with the exception of P2K, most pinball machines weren't even in stereo - that's just sad. The next generation of pinball should probably not only have enhanced LED lighting, but also have 5.1+ audio. That would be a dramatic improvement.

 

[gweempose]

The next generation of pinball should probably not only have enhanced LED lighting, but also have 5.1+ audio. That would be a dramatic improvement.

It would be pretty cool if there were some curved metal supports extending from the backbox that positioned a set of rear speakers right behind the player. Then again, this is probably unnecessary in today's world of advanced, DSP driven simulated surround sound. With the right software, I'm sure they could create a very enveloping soundstage using the front speakers alone.

 

[RareHero]

I'm sure that's the sole reason Stern are not using LEDs today. They're more expensive. Even with their current hardware they could be doing some cool LED effects. In fairness they are using LEDs sparingly but I think their use of them is total crap, personally.

The strange thing is, Iron Man Classic (the home version) has LEDs in all the inserts! I don't get it....they took out magnets and the kickback coil, but spent more on lighting w/ the LEDs....bah.

 

[RareHero]

The next generation of pinball should probably not only have enhanced LED lighting, but also have 5.1+ audio. That would be a dramatic improvement.

Too bad their first game is based on an old MONO movie!

 

[Lindsey]

The strange thing is, Iron Man Classic (the home version) has LEDs in all the inserts! I don't get it....they took out magnets and the kickback coil, but spent more on lighting w/ the LEDs....bah.

Crazy. I hadn't heard that. I would guess their motivation is less maintenance for home users.

 

[Deadly]

I would guess most home users can't afford $4500 let alone $7K for a machine. For me personally I can afford but cannot justify the price tag.
Both companies are destined to fall flat on their faces if they can't produce a quality game that is affordable.
God help me for saying this, but I don't give a crap if this work needs to be farmed out to China to make it happen. If I could own a kick ass pin for (pulling a number out of the air) $3500 and it rocks who the hell cares where it came from? Damn near everything I own is made out of the U.S. so why should I start caring now?
Seriously!

 

[quses]

I would guess most home users can't afford $4500 let alone $7K for a machine. For me personally I can afford but cannot justify the price tag.
Both companies are destined to fall flat on their faces if they can't produce a quality game that is affordable.
God help me for saying this, but I don't give a crap if this work needs to be farmed out to China to make it happen. If I could own a kick ass pin for (pulling a number out of the air) $3500 and it rocks who the hell cares where it came from? Damn near everything I own is made out of the U.S. so why should I start caring now?
Seriously!

Which gets me thinking.... has anyone ever added up the cost of producing one to see what kind of profit margin they have? How much in actual parts and tooling does it take for a machine?

 

[Deadly]

Which gets me thinking.... has anyone ever added up the cost of producing one to see what kind of profit margin they have? How much in actual parts and tooling does it take for a machine?

I'm going to go out on a limb and make this statement.
It has been said Jack plans on using some williams parts. So with that being said most of the parts are in great supply already. There's no R&D needed for flippers and pop bumpers or switches or diverters or VUKS or ... the list goes on and on and on.
LCD's are relatively cheap these days. Programming is going to be the major expense here and is why Stern hasn't jumped into already. Stern himself has said this.

So in the big picture of it all, how much "more" expense can there really be? Drop a template into a CNC machine - again standard procedure

I don;t get where all this added expense is coming from. Seriously I just don;t freaking get it? He refuses to confirm what boards he plans on using but he will confirm what he isn't/won;t be using. I understand the cost of manufacturing has increased but if they have it made over seas and buy in bulk shit is still much cheaper than having it done here.

I love my country as much as the next guy - but if trying to sell a unit on a "Made in the USA" sales pitch means prices have to be inflated that much then I stand my ground and say farm it out to china or whomever can meet the supply and demand. I'm not an engineer. Maybe I'm some what short sighted "hell maybe a whole lot short sighted" but regardless, I cannot possibly see Jack producing a pin that has removed so much of classic/typical pinball operations/hardware and using modern technology let alone justify that much for a machine.

 

[RareHero]

The LCD - the panel itself - may be cheap. ...but remember, you gotta PUT something on that LCD. Oz may be a bit "easier", as they can use movie footage w/ some animated text for scores and instructions. However - if Jack wants to do an original theme for the next game...you're gonna need professional artists and animators to create a TON of content for that LCD...and that's not cheap. Well, it *can* be cheap, but you get what you pay for.

 

[Deadly]

The LCD - the panel itself - may be cheap. ...but remember, you gotta PUT something on that LCD. Oz may be a bit "easier", as they can use movie footage w/ some animated text for scores and instructions. However - if Jack wants to do an original theme for the next game...you're gonna need professional artists and animators to create a TON of content for that LCD...and that's not cheap. Well, it *can* be cheap, but you get what you pay for.

Greg - if you read my last post I stated something to the effect that the LCD programming is expensive and why Stern hasn't done it. I get that part of it. If they simply used movie clips then of course that's gravy.

Honestly, the big problem "for me" is that no one knows exactly what he is trying to do and in my mind I can't see how this machine will be ultimate/superior to what Stern has been doing (minus pix elated artwork, one ramp and mediocre software) heh.

 

[quses]

I can see where there are issues with creating high-quality video output, but nowadays there are so many technologies available - you can use 3D modeling and spend tons of time and resources, or you could use something more modest like Flash, and do a lot of the same thing and save a ton of money.

I think a lot of the problems with these companies complaining about high cost of development is based on their narrow area of expertise and lack of experience with alternate technologies that might make development more efficient.

One reason to me, why pinball isn't popular any more is because pinball has been stuck in a rut - with the exception of P2K, there hasn't been a lot of innovation. What's the point for someone to go to an arcade if they can't see something they've never seen before? As opposed to something they've seen a bunch of, but with different graphics painted on it?

Over the course of pinball, we've seen a lot of innovations things like:

* flippers (from where there were none)
* backbox animation
* animated playfield toys
* multiball
* ramps
* multiple levels
* backbox playfields
* different size/weight balls
* magnets
* animated light effects
* DMDs
* networked machines
* video screens
* holographic projection

and so what's new? what cool thing has Stern added to any of their games in the last 15 years? They still haven't caught up with what Williams did in 1999.

To me, for a new pinball company to make a major difference, they have to add a bunch of things to the list, that nobody's ever seen before. So far, WOZ doesn't appear to have anything new.

 

[Deadly]

Hmmm - I just had a thought as to why the huge gap in pricing ($7K less than $10K).

A flipping pf ........ that has to be it.
Black and white dulled down artwork on the first pf to represent Kansas and all that transpired there.
Then when the movie goes to color, the pf flips to the hidden pf underneath that is colored with all different artwork representing OZ and the yellow brick road.
The end of the game would flip back to first playfield.

Can you imagine how many modes this concoction would enable? Oh my lord that would be mind blowing.

 

[stevenp61]

and so what's new? what cool thing has Stern added to any of their games in the last 15 years? They still haven't caught up with what Williams did in 1999.

If you're referring to pin2k, yeah, it ws different but not what I would like to see as the future of pinball. The concept has some merits and can add depth/variety to a game. But the execution was a miniaturized (safecracker-like) version of a pin without even the variety and full scope of features of sc. Shoot at the 2 ramps, the 2 orbits, and the video stuff in the middle--that's about it for either of the pin2k games. Maybe subsequent games would have had a more interesting pf, but the 2 released games really cut back on pf features.

 

[quses]

If you're referring to pin2k, yeah, it ws different but not what I would like to see as the future of pinball. The concept has some merits and can add depth/variety to a game. But the execution was a miniaturized (safecracker-like) version of a pin without even the variety and full scope of features of sc. Shoot at the 2 ramps, the 2 orbits, and the video stuff in the middle--that's about it for either of the pin2k games. Maybe subsequent games would have had a more interesting pf, but the 2 released games really cut back on pf features.

Have you ever taken a good look at P2K? Like the actual size of the playfield? If you do you will realize that P2K is about the exact same size as a regular playfield. It simply has a reduced overall footprint because the enclosure has been redesigned. There's no less pinball "real estate" in P2K than any non-widebody pin. In fact, P2K probably has more cubic space of playfield area than traditional pinball games. It has more vertical space between the playfield and the glass (room for more ramps and levels). There is no playability sacrificed - it simply takes up less space. It's truly a brilliant design.

The truth is, with only 2 games produced, we have no idea what the potential of the game could have been, but just those two games accomplished a lot more innovation than 30 prior years of the industry. It's really a shame P2K isn't more appreciated.

 

[Lindsey]

Here's a comparison of the playfield lengths. Williams went from 42" to 46" playfields in 1988 and P2K were 43".

 

[metahugh]

Here's a comparison of the playfield lengths. Williams went from 42" to 46" playfields in 1988 and P2K were 43".

Yeah P2K is a shorter playfield but I agree that it was largely overlooked. I'd love to find one for sale. I love the idea and RFM is a lot of fun.

There are so many cool things that can be done with WOZ. I'm hoping it breaks the market open and their next title is a theme I would like. I hate to say it but my satisfaction when buying a pin is directly tied to the theme. Now if these were $500-$1000 games theme wouldn't be so important but with the amount of $$ spent on these things I better love the theme/gameplay.

I hope Jack is successful but I can't see myself spending $7k for a NIB pin.

 

[RareHero]

I hate to say it but my satisfaction when buying a pin is directly tied to the theme.

Hey, nothing wrong w/ that. We all have opinions, and not every theme is for everyone. Licensed or original.

 

[Deadly]

@ Metahugh - anyone that claims theme is irrelevant or not as important as game play IMHO isn't seeing the whole picture.

A pin has to have a theme that people can relate to - one that a person looks at and says, "Oh shit I loved that movie" or "wow that looks cool!"
As I've preached a 1000 times over, just like a house if it doesn't have curb appeal people aren't going to want to look at it/buy it. If a game doesn't have curb appeal or relevancy in some way it's not going to get the initial coin drop. Once the player drops their first coin THEN is when actual game play is important.

I also preach, "Remember when you were a kid and you'd play a game and the thing would hand you your ass? Didn't like it then did you?"
To this day I still don't enjoy walking up to a machine and having it hand me my ass. Yes, the OPs have the chance to make more money by shorter ball times but on the flip side of the coin, it'll have a greater impact on keeping the "average Joes" from dropping another coin. Double edged sword for sure.