I see, I cant wait to see some pics of this pin but the price is quite high.Who knows it might end up being a great pin and worth it.
WHERE IS THE Wizard Of OZ PIN BEING BUILT?
- Thread starter pinman123
- Start date
I see, I cant wait to see some pics of this pin but the price is quite high.Who knows it might end up being a great pin and worth it.
RareHero
Well-known member
Well, at the very least, I hope it does well enough that Jack goes ahead w/ pin #2 and beyond. Hopefully there will be a cool theme that I would personally enjoy!
Well, at the very least, I hope it does well enough that Jack goes ahead w/ pin #2 and beyond. Hopefully there will be a cool theme that I would personally enjoy!
Stern is probably going to speed up production to make TRON before the OZ pin comes out
RareHero
Well-known member
They don't have to. Tron was always scheduled for April, and Jack said Oz is slated for the end of the year.
JeepMonkey
New member
Has Jack said anything about if he will continue to sell Stern machines once he is making pins?
lilman573
Well-known member
Yes, i think this was touched on in RGP. Stern took Pinballsales.com of their vendor list.... At least thats what i remember reading.
He's been off the Stern distributor list for a while now.
quses
Member
They could get it right by using LEDs instead of incandescents. That's what they should have started doing years ago.
*only* if the circuits are adapted for LEDs, instead of sticking them into an incandescent circuit. Otherwise, too bright and strobey for a pin.
LEDs overall look horrible. You lose a lot when going to LEDs. Now if they could make LEDs react like incandescents and get rid of the on/off nature of them I am all for it.
quses
Member
The strobe-like nature can easily be addressed. If pinball developers would stop relying on 100+ year old electronics technology/design, that problem would be easily solved.
Lindsey
Well-known member
What exactly is the 100+ year old technology?
Deadly
New member
100+ technology meaning electricity?
Which btw wasn't invented it was discovered. The first person to document the use of electricity dates as far back as the ancient Greeks. In 1752 Benjamin Franklin created the lighting rod and finally in 1779 some one created the first battery.
So Lindsey - if electricity is what he was referring to then it's definitely 100+ year old technology lol.
FWIW - I'm sure it was a simple over exaggeration to make a point that we're well over due for new technology
Lindsey
Well-known member
100+ technology meaning electricity?
Which btw wasn't invented it was discovered. The first person to document the use of electricity dates as far back as the ancient Greeks. In 1752 Benjamin Franklin created the lighting rod and finally in 1779 some one created the first battery.
So Lindsey - if electricity is what he was referring to then it's definitely 100+ year old technology lol.
FWIW - I'm sure it was a simple over exaggeration to make a point that we're well over due for new technology
I thought he might be talking about wood
EDIT: Baghdad batteries are also worth mentioning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery
EDIT2: It's also worth mentioning that the hardware currently being used in pinball machines can handle LEDs just fine with the right software.
Last edited:
quses
Member
Well, for one, incandescent bulbs are 100+ year old technology. LEDs are the future; they are brighter, come in more colors and shades, run cooler, use less electricity, last 100x longer and are more heat, dust, and vibration resistant, and are more energy efficient. A single LED could replace multiple types of bulbs, doing GI, spotlighting, strobes, etc.
Any undesired effect of LEDs (like 60hz strobing) is a function of the circuit design and can be easily addressed if designers would, once again, start using more modern technology. There's no reason why pinball can't be modernized and still be fun to play.
Unfortunately, I suspect WOZ is going to be more like John Popadiuk's rejected P2K design, and look more like a traditional machine with a LCD stuck inside, not very innovative. But I still like the idea of there being more pinball manufacturers so I wish them luck.
Last edited:
Lindsey
Well-known member
I agree but that's not what you were talking about. You specifically said that LED problems could be solved with more modern technology. I was wondering what specific technology you're talking about.
Last edited:
But LEDs are an on/off device. There is no "cooldown" i.e. they don't gradually get brighter or dimmer as current is applied and taken away. This is what makes incandescent bulbs cool, especially when a light is blinking. Power is taken away and the filament glows from the heat and gradually dissipates. Certain attract modes look better with incandescent bulbs, like LOTR's when it does the sweeping motion from left to right and back.
Maybe this can be emulated in software somehow. Hopefully it happens someday. Until then I hope Jack sticks with incandescent bulbs.
quses
Member
Better circuit design, better software, use of additional components and semiconductors.
Huh? LEDs are most certainly dimmible, and able to be much more precisely controlled than incandescents, whose brightness can vary dramatically and over time given the same amount of current.
Now, replacing incandescents with LEDs without changing the circuit and software, I can see there being issues. Older machines were designed to make use of the delays in/out of bulbs but LEDs can emulate that behavior - the software and circuits just need to be adjusted to compensate.
That fade-up, fade-down effect with incandesents can be easily emulated with LEDs and capacitors.
Incandescent bulbs are old, obsolete technology. It's entirely possible to design an LED-based circuit that could almost perfectly emulate incandescents. The problem is, you won't see what is possible if you stick LEDs in an old circuit; the circuit needs revising... this is what I'm saying.. if you're going to design an all-new machine, re-do the circuits to take advantage of the new technology...
For example, there are now RGB LEDs... you can have one LED emulate an entire rainbow of colors. Instead of having a playfield illumination setup using a single color scheme, with LEDs you could make each mode have dramatically different lighting and color effects. This one change alone would be totally amazing. And all it takes is redesigning the lighting circuit and using LEDs. It's not necessarily that much more expensive than the old way.
Check out some of the cool things people are doing with 20 cent LEDs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cLLyfop3QI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkrZbBEqcjo
Last edited:
Lindsey
Well-known member
The software is what needs an update far more than the hardware to effectively use LEDs. WPC is a prime example. T2 works perfectly with updated code but the original code has all kinds of ghosting issues. It just wasn't designed for LEDs so it wasn't considered in the programming. I'm sure you could do pulse width modulated LED effects with WPC hardware. That will give you your "incandescent like" options. It's also possible to add a circuit at each LED to simulate the slow on/off of an incandescent but PWM is a more flexible option and allows for effects that would never be possible with incandescents.
I agree that LEDs are definitely the way to go for new pins. I'm surprised Stern is not using them more. It's definitely not a limitation with the hardware they're using.
I agree that LEDs are definitely the way to go for new pins. I'm surprised Stern is not using them more. It's definitely not a limitation with the hardware they're using.
Thanks for the correction guys. Did a little research... so it seems like as long as pulse width modulation is used then LEDs will work fine. The question is will they go that far? LEDs still cost a lot more than incandescents.
Lindsey, have you seen LEDs in a T2 in person? From what I understand it solves the ghosting issue but the LEDs still appear to be turning on and off instead of slowing fading in and out.
