Vector Garbage

[VectorCollector]

In the wise words of @jawhn (and pic by @TheYeti ).
Where the key word, from a preservation perspective, is "until".
Also, note that "emulation" also applies to "non-original". IMHO

The true crime here, in most instances, is not that the hardware is not obtainable nor repairable, but the owner lacks the knowledge or will to maintain the 40 year old hardware. I would suggest those individuals do not deserve to own these games. As another member stated, "we are custodians" for these games and it is our responsibility to keep them working and perhaps "complete/original/maintained" ... preferably as those original designers intended. This lack of learning is already evident on KLOV where members quote AI in many repair threads. People are definitely getting more ignorant as time progresses. They don't search for knowledge, they just want to be spoonfed the answers. Sad.

The only game I have with non-OG hardware is my I,Robot. And I agree, that is due to price constraints and the rarity of an OG boardset. (Thanks Jason).
For more common vectors, such as OR, Asteroids, BattleZone, Tempest etc, there is no reason to not use the original boards (with or without add-on multigame daughtercards, where applicable). IMHO

That said, I still stand by my creation of this thread. LOL

 

[ArcadeJason]

There's an Omega Race FPGA? Where can I get one? I'll take one of your 6502s also!

do you still believe cycle accurate cpu emulation is impossible?
i am not the only one to do this. by the way the 8080 fusion has cycle accurate 8080 emulation too.

here are examples of other peoples cycle accurate cpu emulators
notice many of these guys are using the same micro controller that i do.
everything we do is not cycle accurate cpu emulation (simulation) but as micro controllers advance more will be possible in the future.

 

[andrewb]

lol you seem to think the original pcb will just disappear. because of my pcbs people will use asteroids boards as frisbees or perhaps use them for traction to get out of the snow.

"BuT tHe OrIgInAl bOaRdS sTiLL eXiSt" is not an excuse. A dead board left to rot in a box isn't preservation.

But more importantly, it isn't just about the boards. It's about knowledge. It's about teaching people to become custodians of these games, and how to diagnose, troubleshoot, repair, and maintain them, inside AND out. (Which is the point of preservation.) The insides of these games are as worthy of preservation as the wood exteriors. However your products encourage replacement, not preservation.

As a popular figure in this hobby, you could be doing more to help educate people. But you choose to just sell them things instead. And instead of cultivating smart, self-sufficient, knowledgeable collectors, it just creates consumers. You're devaluing original hardware (to be used as frisbees, in your own words), to put money in your own pocket. Selling out an important long-term aspect of the hobby for your own short-term personal benefit, and some social media attention.

And I think that's a net negative for the hobby.

 

[Mattspad]

"BuT tHe OrIgInAl bOaRdS sTiLL eXiSt" is not an excuse. A dead board left to rot in a box isn't preservation.

But more importantly, it isn't just about the boards. It's about knowledge. It's about teaching people to become custodians of these games, and how to diagnose, troubleshoot, repair, and maintain them, inside AND out. (Which is the point of preservation.) The insides of these games are as worthy of preservation as the wood exteriors. However your products encourage replacement, not preservation.

As a popular figure in this hobby, you could be doing more to help educate people. But you choose to just sell them things instead. And instead of cultivating smart, self-sufficient, knowledgeable collectors, it just creates consumers. You're devaluing original hardware (to be used as frisbees, in your own words), to put money in your own pocket. Selling out an important long-term aspect of the hobby for your own short-term personal benefit, and some social media attention.

And I think that's a net negative for the hobby.

Look I actually agree with you people should teach themselves to properly maintain these games. But I also think most people just aren't capable of repairing these things no matter how hard you try to teach them. I think you're butt hurt over the fact like you said these things devalue original boards, which you make money on repairing and selling, it's kind of hypocritical to complain about him trying to make money. I think original pcbs should be worth less, everything in this hobby has a hyper inflated value imo. This is a net positive if it keeps more machines alive, I don't love Jason's raspberry pi emulation personally but I know better indistinguishable fpga solutions are on the horizon. These kinds of boards are great for barcade operators who need to depend on these games. You could also be doing more to educate and help people but you're here complaining.

 

[andrewb]

Look I actually agree with you people should teach themselves to properly maintain these games. But I also think most people just aren't capable of repairing these things no matter how hard you try to teach them. I think you're butt hurt over the fact like you said these things devalue original boards, which you make money on repairing and selling, it's kind of hypocritical to complain about him trying to make money. I think original pcbs should be worth less, everything in this hobby has a hyper inflated value imo. This is a net positive if it keeps more machines alive, I don't love Jason's raspberry pi emulation personally but I know better indistinguishable fpga solutions are on the horizon. These kinds of boards are great for barcade operators who need to depend on these games. You could also be doing more to educate and help people but you're here complaining.

These games and boards are not that hard to repair in a LOT of cases. All you have to do is learn. And if you don't want to do board repair, at least learn enough to diagnose the problem, and send the boards to someone who can fix them. But you'll never get that chance when you listen to a bunch of people wanting to sell you a repro replacement board.

The only thing I'm butt hurt about is watching the hobby be sold out to benefit one person. Instead of learning how to take care of these games in ways they can pass on to future generations, a lot of people are taking the fast food way out, and just buying a thing that replaces the guts of a cab.

And it's not their fault for not knowing more. But I do blame those who DO know better for taking advantage of that lack of knowledge, instead of raising other people's knowledge up.

Repro products have their place. They're valuable when they ENABLE the preservation of more original hardware, or when they fill a need for which there just isn't enough original hardware. Or things like plug-in multikits that expand the capabilities of original hardware, but still require having the original hardware.

That isn't what Jason does. Jason continues to pump out emulation boards for every cab he thinks he can sell products for. Cabs like Asteroids, Battlezone, Tempest, etc, for which there are plenty of original boards still around. I think he has a board for almost every Atari vector cab now. And that's just a cash grab.

As for me, I do plenty to educate people here about repair. Read some of my 29,000 posts over the last 11 years. I'm in threads every day helping people troubleshoot problems. I've written guides that have become common knowledge, and get sent to every person who has boards repaired by me. I walk everyone who gets boards from me through how to test the rest of their cab, check voltages, frame transistors, and all the other stuff inside the cab, so they can be sure the boards they just spent money restoring won't blow up when they hit power. And they'll know what to check in the future if and when anything goes wrong.

The work I do here makes money, yes. But none of it is at the EXPENSE of original hardware. The work I do puts MORE original boards back in cabinets where they belong, and INCREASES the value of original hardware. And everyone who buys from me ends up knowing MORE about the inside of their game when they're done. Not less.

Knowledge is what makes a hobby a hobby. We should be teaching and encouraging each other to learn more here. Not buy more.

 

[ArcadeJason]

These games and boards are not that hard to repair in a LOT of cases. All you have to do is learn. And if you don't want to do board repair, at least learn enough to diagnose the problem, and send the boards to someone who can fix them. But you'll never get that chance when you listen to a bunch of people wanting to sell you a repro replacement board.

The only thing I'm butt hurt about is watching the hobby be sold out to benefit one person. Instead of learning how to take care of these games in ways they can pass on to future generations, a lot of people are taking the fast food way out, and just buying a thing that replaces the guts of a cab.

And it's not their fault for not knowing more. But I do blame those who DO know better for taking advantage of that lack of knowledge, instead of raising other people's knowledge up.

Repro products have their place. They're valuable when they ENABLE the preservation of more original hardware, or when they fill a need for which there just isn't enough original hardware. Or things like plug-in multikits that expand the capabilities of original hardware, but still require having the original hardware.

That isn't what Jason does. Jason continues to pump out emulation boards for every cab he thinks he can sell products for. Cabs like Asteroids, Battlezone, Tempest, etc, for which there are plenty of original boards still around. I think he has a board for almost every Atari vector cab now. And that's just a cash grab.

As for me, I do plenty to educate people here about repair. Read some of my 29,000 posts over the last 11 years. I'm in threads every day helping people troubleshoot problems. I've written guides that have become common knowledge, and get sent to every person who has boards repaired by me. I walk everyone who gets boards from me through how to test the rest of their cab, check voltages, frame transistors, and all the other stuff inside the cab, so they can be sure the boards they just spent money restoring won't blow up when they hit power. And they'll know what to check in the future if and when anything goes wrong.

The work I do here makes money, yes. But none of it is at the EXPENSE of original hardware. The work I do puts MORE original boards back in cabinets where they belong, and INCREASES the value of original hardware. And everyone who buys from me ends up knowing MORE about the inside of their game when they're done. Not less.

Knowledge is what makes a hobby a hobby. We should be teaching and encouraging each other to learn more here. Not buy more.

what about arcade sd, bitkit, jrok, you don't harass these people. i am not saying there is anything wrong with those boards i am just pointing out that you have an unhealthy obsession with me.
unlike a jamma board all of my pcbs plug in right out of the box and PRESERVE the original harness. if some one wants to plug a multi board into THEIR game they can and there is nothing wrong with that.
Go ahead and write walls of text because every time you do you sell more of my products. You are my employee of the month!!!
here is a pic of the next board coming down the pipeline. this board plugs into the ORIGINAL harness and will be the first to use the original flasher/sound hardware/ video player.

 

[toledoflyer]

View attachment 854921

he is referring to the tempest multi fpga which plays omega race.
also omega race sounds are clocked too fast and sound distorted

So you want me to believe this "customer" of yours had one of Scott's Tempest multi FPGA kits plugged into his Omega Race cab with an "original spinner" and he "replaced" it with one of your Omega Race multi software emulation boards? Sounds reasonable.

 

[toledoflyer]

do you still believe cycle accurate cpu emulation is impossible?
i am not the only one to do this. by the way the 8080 fusion has cycle accurate 8080 emulation too.

here are examples of other peoples cycle accurate cpu emulators
notice many of these guys are using the same micro controller that i do.
everything we do is not cycle accurate cpu emulation (simulation) but as micro controllers advance more will be possible in the future.

View attachment 854928View attachment 854934View attachment 854929View attachment 854931View attachment 854930View attachment 854932View attachment 854933

So I can't buy one of your 6502s? Maybe check on @HudsonArcade 's coffee table?

 

[andrewb]

what about arcade sd, bitkit, jrok, you don't harass these people.

None of those people have taken what they do to the scale you have. They also aren't constantly spamming multiple sites with their stuff.

They've all made one or a few products, and Jroks were originally made a long time ago. The people you think you are trying to copy aren't trying to mass produce emulation boards for every possible cab. (If anything, Bitkit started as the opposite, looking to preserve games for which original hardware was rare or nonexistent, though he has branched out. However his board is JAMMA, and isn't designed to drop into many original cabs. So it's a different use case.)

I've also made comments about Jrok and other projects like the Exidy 440 FPGA in terms of their effect on original hardware, if you want to go read that discussion.

i am just pointing out that you have an unhealthy obsession with me.

You are not a victim here. I am not 'obsessed' with you.

You are doing something that I feel is bad for this hobby. And as long as you continue to spam this hobby with cheap emulation boards for every cab under the sun, I will continue to voice my opinion. The more you post, the more I post.

 

[ArcadeJason]

So I can't buy one of your 6502s? Maybe check on @HudsonArcade 's coffee table?

check your messages

 

[bobbyb13]

Suffer quietly is the mantra I was taught, but if the disparaging here claim they can have their opinion then I suppose I can profess mine too.

It pains me to see these machines butchered but only a communist dipshit would think they are allowed to tell other people what they can do with their property.

Anyone complaining about someone developing anything that enhances yet doesn't alter original equipmemt is obviously blinded by their myopic opinion.

The (unpleasant) surprise of the opinion of people I previously had respect for here always astounds me.
And no, I don't care if you don't like me either.

I've made plenty of great friends of good people here and not one of them would be proud of casting aspersions about people they are purported to share a community with.

There are many who deserve to be berated for their treatment of these relics and Jason is not one of them.

 

[andrewb]

Suffer quietly is the mantra I was taught, but if the disparaging here claim they can have their opinion then I suppose I can profess mine too.

It pains me to see these machines butchered but only a communist dipshit would think they are allowed to tell other people what they can do with their property.

Anyone complaining about someone developing anything that enhances yet doesn't alter original equipmemt is obviously blinded by their myopic opinion.

The (unpleasant) surprise of the opinion of people I previously had respect for here always astounds me.
And no, I don't care if you don't like me either.

I've made plenty of great friends of good people here and not one of them would be proud of casting aspersions about people they are purported to share a community with.

There are many who deserve to be berated for their treatment of these relics and Jason is not one of them.

You don't have to like or respect me. I'm not here to create an army of fanboys.

I care about the long-term welfare of this hobby, the community, and these games. And if you think cultivating a horde of mindless consumers, who don't even know how to use a DMM (literally, I'm not exaggerating) is good for this hobby in the long run, I think you're wrong.

There are good and bad ways to do things. There are right and wrong ways of doing things. And there are smart and dumb ways of doing things. Buying anything old and not learning how it works or how to take care of it is DUMB.

The goal of any hobby is to get past being a noob as quickly as possible. You want to get to the point where you know enough to actually give something BACK to the community, help other people, and contribute in other ways. That's what makes a community a community.

And while I do see plenty of people here who do it the right way, I also a lot of people (mainly the FB crowd) NOT getting to that point. And I see other people who cater to that, and make products that short-circuit any desire to learn anything. And I think that's a bad pattern. Because you not only end up with dumb, dependent people, you end up with people who don't appreciate one of the best parts of this hobby, which is the actual technology. And that's bad for the hobby.

If we don't cultivate more people who grow and eventually give back to the hobby, there won't be as many people down the road to keep the hobby going. The more we cultivate knowledge, the stronger this hobby will be in the future. Without knowledge, all you have is a fad, and a bunch of consumers mindlessly buying shit.

This is simple cause and effect. It has nothing to do with 'telling you what do to with your property'. I don't fault noobs for being noobs. But I do fault veterans for not doing better, and not helping more people get out of noobville.

We are all temporary guardians for these games. They will outlive all of us. And if you actually care about the hobby beyond the end of your nose, you should care that there will be someplace for them to go when you are gone.

 

[ArcadeJason]

You don't have to like or respect me. I'm not here to create an army of fanboys.

I care about the long-term welfare of this hobby, the community, and these games. And if you think cultivating a horde of mindless consumers, who don't even know how to use a DMM (literally, I'm not exaggerating) is good for this hobby in the long run, I think you're wrong.

There are good and bad ways to do things. There are right and wrong ways of doing things. And there are smart and dumb ways of doing things. Buying anything old and not learning how it works or how to take care of it is DUMB.

The goal of any hobby is to get past being a noob as quickly as possible. You want to get to the point where you know enough to actually give something BACK to the community, help other people, and contribute in other ways. That's what makes a community a community.

And while I do see plenty of people here who do it the right way, I also a lot of people (mainly the FB crowd) NOT getting to that point. And I see other people who cater to that, and make products that short-circuit any desire to learn anything. And I think that's a bad pattern. Because you not only end up with dumb, dependent people, you end up with people who don't appreciate one of the best parts of this hobby, which is the actual technology. And that's bad for the hobby.

If we don't cultivate more people who grow and eventually give back to the hobby, there won't be as many people down the road to keep the hobby going. The more we cultivate knowledge, the stronger this hobby will be in the future. Without knowledge, all you have is a fad, and a bunch of consumers mindlessly buying shit.

This is simple cause and effect. It has nothing to do with 'telling you what do to with your property'. I don't fault noobs for being noobs. But I do fault veterans for not doing better, and not helping more people get out of noobville.

We are all temporary guardians for these games. They will outlive all of us. And if you actually care about the hobby beyond the end of your nose, you should care that there will be someplace for them to go when you are gone.

you do realize 95% of all the klov members are on face book right? while most sales are through arcade shop when i sell on facebook i sell mostly to klov members and half of the questions about my products are via klov messages.
people contact me every day asking repair advise and i help them as if its a second job but i don't need the attention or feel the need to constantly brag about it.

 

[Mattspad]

These games and boards are not that hard to repair in a LOT of cases. All you have to do is learn. And if you don't want to do board repair, at least learn enough to diagnose the problem, and send the boards to someone who can fix them. But you'll never get that chance when you listen to a bunch of people wanting to sell you a repro replacement board.

The only thing I'm butt hurt about is watching the hobby be sold out to benefit one person. Instead of learning how to take care of these games in ways they can pass on to future generations, a lot of people are taking the fast food way out, and just buying a thing that replaces the guts of a cab.

And it's not their fault for not knowing more. But I do blame those who DO know better for taking advantage of that lack of knowledge, instead of raising other people's knowledge up.

Repro products have their place. They're valuable when they ENABLE the preservation of more original hardware, or when they fill a need for which there just isn't enough original hardware. Or things like plug-in multikits that expand the capabilities of original hardware, but still require having the original hardware.

That isn't what Jason does. Jason continues to pump out emulation boards for every cab he thinks he can sell products for. Cabs like Asteroids, Battlezone, Tempest, etc, for which there are plenty of original boards still around. I think he has a board for almost every Atari vector cab now. And that's just a cash grab.

As for me, I do plenty to educate people here about repair. Read some of my 29,000 posts over the last 11 years. I'm in threads every day helping people troubleshoot problems. I've written guides that have become common knowledge, and get sent to every person who has boards repaired by me. I walk everyone who gets boards from me through how to test the rest of their cab, check voltages, frame transistors, and all the other stuff inside the cab, so they can be sure the boards they just spent money restoring won't blow up when they hit power. And they'll know what to check in the future if and when anything goes wrong.

The work I do here makes money, yes. But none of it is at the EXPENSE of original hardware. The work I do puts MORE original boards back in cabinets where they belong, and INCREASES the value of original hardware. And everyone who buys from me ends up knowing MORE about the inside of their game when they're done. Not less.

Knowledge is what makes a hobby a hobby. We should be teaching and encouraging each other to learn more here. Not buy more.

Plug in multi kits for original pcbs, you talk about preserving originals boards then endorse that. First off those kinds of mods fly in the face of real hardware preservation, second off the daughter cards that were never meant to be plugged into 40 year old single wipes ends up ruining all the sockets on an original pcb. People like high score saves are straight up destroying donkey Kong pcbs and ripping people off but you don't see me bitching up a storm like you do. You have a personal grudge against Jason.

 

[andrewb]

people contact me every day asking repair advise and i help them as if its a second job but i don't need the attention or feel the need to constantly brag about it.

Yes, but it's asking for advice about how to get your own products working.

 

[andrewb]

Plug in multi kits for original pcbs, you talk about preserving originals boards then endorse that. First off those kinds of mods fly in the face of real hardware preservation, second off the daughter cards that were never meant to be plugged into 40 year old single wipes ends up ruining all the sockets on an original pcb. People like high score saves are straight up destroying donkey Kong pcbs and ripping people off but you don't see me bitching up a storm like you do. You have a personal grudge against Jason.

When you use the proper sized pins on your daughterboards, they don't destroy the sockets.

This is a simple thing.

 

[ArcadeJason]

Yes, but it's asking for advice about how to get your own products working.

Lol no but thanks for trying

 

[bobbyb13]

Wasn't even you to whom I refer @andrewb

There are numerous people here making things that didn't exist BITD but enhance our machines and move the hobby forward and nearly all get a pass- except for Jason.
I learn something weekly about this hobby but I will NEVER know a measurable fraction of what at least four of the people in this thread will.

Doesn't make me a bad community member.

Unsolicited disparaging remarks about other people is nothing to be proud of.

 

[Mattspad]

When you use the proper sized pins on your daughterboards, they don't destroy the sockets.

This is a simple thing.

Ah yes because weight is not a factor, having a big ass daughter card sitting in a dinkey old socket is a great idea. You're a smart guy but you say some really dumb stuff sometimes man, and you gotta stop with this holier than thou attitude. When you think you know everything is when you stop being capable of rational thought.

 

[andrewb]

Ah yes because weight is not a factor, having a big ass daughter card sitting in a dinkey old socket is a great idea. You're a smart guy but you say some really dumb stuff sometimes man, and you gotta stop with this holier than thou attitude. When you think you know everything is when you stop being capable of rational thought.

I've been repairing boards for people here for a decade. I have hundreds of daughterboards installed in other people's cabs.

When it's done properly, it isn't a problem.