Vacuum cleaners and PCBs

If you think you're potentially damaging a part via ESD, and it might fail in 30 years, you can replace it in 30 years. TTL parts aren't going extinct any time soon.

I'd rather have clean boards today.
 
If you think you're potentially damaging a part via ESD, and it might fail in 30 years, you can replace it in 30 years. TTL parts aren't going extinct any time soon.

I'd rather have clean boards today.

Hey man, caveat emptor. If clean is more important to you, who am I to say. They are your boards, do with them as you please. Just don't sell me (and more importantly the folks out there that legitimately want to understand) that we only "think" they are harming them. That's just a plain old dis-service to the community.

They are 30yrs old at this point anyway. Probably been shocked so many times up till now they have lots of problems. They are hearty but continuing the mistreatment isn't going to help.
 
There is plenty of information on ESD on the internet which obviously debunks it as an "Old wives' tale", seems odd that you don't spend the small amount of effort to actually look it up.



This is a ridiculous question which bears no value. You are ignoring that ESD failures predominantly effect lifetime in a non catastrophic way. This question is predisposed to result in the answer No.



Perfect case in point as It's unlikely to fail at the moment of vacuuming.

To which I might add - How are you sure? At what point did you make sure that a board you vacuumed has survived its expected lifetime and if it hasn't have you run failure analysis on the component to ensure it wasn't ESD related?



I guess you are correct, you didn't miss my point, you dismissed it. Doesn't sound like risk assessment to me.. more like fishing for the answer required to make one content with their choice. Which I might add, you are welcome to do, it's your prerogative. Just don't try to make it sound like you made a decision based on data or evidence.



You should look up the difference between quantitative and qualitative data. You don't seem to be interested in quantitative data - you are not asking for numbers and measurements. You are asking for folks feedback about their experiences (qualitative). If you were interested in numbers (quantitative) a simple google search would have answered your question.



IMO You are just looking for the easy way out and to feel good about it. No this isn't the game we play, it's the game you play. You either take the proper steps or you don't. It's that simple. Don't ask what you should do and when you don't like the answer make it sound like there isn't any problem and it's just overblown hype.

Wow, you seem really upset. That being the case, I will look past what could be seen as personal insults and just let it lie. Thanks for your input.
 
Hey man, caveat emptor. If clean is more important to you, who am I to say. They are your boards, do with them as you please. Just don't sell me (and more importantly the folks out there that legitimately want to understand) that we only "think" they are harming them. That's just a plain old dis-service to the community.

They are 30yrs old at this point anyway. Probably been shocked so many times up till now they have lots of problems. They are hearty but continuing the mistreatment isn't going to help.


I feel like you're twisting my words. That was not a slight directed at you in any way.

Maybe I'm misreading your tone, but I feel like you're getting unnecessarily worked up about this. We all hear what you're saying about ESD.

*My experience* repairing many of these 30+ year-old boards (and as an EE) tells me that there is no *excessive* risk of ESD damage, the way there is with CMOS parts, where it's very easy to do damage (and yes, without knowing or feeling it). And any potential damage that could occur to an arcade PCB, can be easily remedied. So there's no real value in handling these PCBs and parts with industrial-level ESD-protective kid gloves.

In *my opinion* it's akin to buying a brand new Ferrari, and parking it in storage and never driving it, because you don't want it to get scratched. If you want to do that, go right ahead, more power to you. Maybe in 30 years it will be worth more to someone.

For me, I'd rather have the daily driver that I can wash and wax once in a while, and if something breaks, I'll fix it. To each his own.

Regarding qualitative vs quantitative, yes, the OP isn't asking for vacuum cleaner studies of ESD damage. He's simply soliciting peoples' personal experiences and opinions. And once he starts *counting* those experiences, there is a quantitative element to what he's asking. Is it conclusive? Of course not. But he's just soliciting input. Give the guy a break.

Comparing companies that spend $$$ on ESD protection to home hobbyists is apples to oranges. Large companies that sell thousands of parts can't afford to have even a handful be zapped by static, if those parts are going into a medical device, other critical equipment, where if it fails they are at risk, etc. We're talking about arcade games here. Different environment.
 
Wow, you seem really upset. That being the case, I will look past what could be seen as personal insults and just let it lie. Thanks for your input.

Personal insults, I apologize. That's not constructive and not how I want to be.

But, frankly, yes I was/am. My grudge is not with you vacuuming your boards, that's your choice. But rather simply the statement that ESD "may or may not be taking place" as quoted below.

I'm simply inclined to accept the risk-reward balance involved in keeping a PCB clean against the possibility that some non-obvious damage may or may not be taking place.

That taken in context with the thread's subject of asking for advice:

If the collected wisdom here says it's a real risk, then I won't do it. On the other hand, if this is another "Old wives' tale", it would sure be a nice way to keep a board clean without even the need to remove it.

It most definitely is not an "Old wives' tale", and is an important consideration, more so on the newer boards with the higher density components. Drawing this connection is what I object to. ESD is consistently and improperly characterized as a false truth because it's not a human recognizable occurrence which is untrue and I believe it does us no good as a community to brush it off as such. You probably didn't intend to directly push that conclusion but I've encountered it a lot in the industry and it's always an uphill battle and so I got crabby.

Most of us here are hobbyists, and don't do this for a living, we do it for fun. We do it because we enjoy these damn things. We come here to ask questions and because we don't know. I just don't want someone to take away that "the collected wisdom here says" its fake.

I apologize for everything else.
 
??? See post #20 for trolling.
You're in NH, eh? Have we met?

I wasn't trying to troll you but did. It was a poorly put together attempt at reinforcing the point above.

No, we haven't met. I've only met andrewb once when I dropped some parts for him.

I feel like you're twisting my words. That was not a slight directed at you in any way.

Maybe I'm misreading your tone, but I feel like you're getting unnecessarily worked up about this. We all hear what you're saying about ESD.

Here's hoping my previous post clears that up.
 
Air compressor and air nozzle should blow everything clean. just watch the labels. I do it all the time if I want to keep them dry. if not the wet method works great.
I wash boards in the kitchen sink all the time using Simple Green and a toothbrush. Once done, I let them dry in the hot sun or use an air compressor. Works great.

As far as static, I use grounding straps and constantly ground myself. Every little bit helps.

Scott C.
 
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Personal insults, I apologize. That's not constructive and not how I want to be.

No worries!

But, frankly, yes I was/am. My grudge is not with you vacuuming your boards, that's your choice. But rather simply the statement that ESD "may or may not be taking place" as quoted below.
I see where we maybe talking about a couple of different things.

1) I completely accept that ESD has the potential to damage TTL parts. I did in fact do a bunch of Googling before posting, and there are a number of well-written studies in real journals that demonstrate that, while CMOS is MORE sensitive to ESD, TTL is also sensitive and susceptible to damage.

2) I do not dispute your point that there is the potential for ESD damage to occur in a way that is not immediately obvious.

I think these were your major points as I understand them.

MY point is actually kind of what Mark was getting at, although I'll put a bit differently:

What is the probability and frequency of a vacuum cleaner generating an ESD event sufficient to cause damage to a TTL part, be it an immediate and catastrophic event, or one that has set up a future failure?

THAT is where I am making my risk assessment.

What I have been able to gather, at least anecdotally, is that it is an event that doesn't seem to occur that often. There are plenty of "learning experiences" that a lot of us seem to need to figure out for ourselves (eg: getting zapped discharging a monitor tube), and so far, this doesn't appear to be one of them.

That said, I'm not about to put the vacuum on my 2 year-old PC mobo. Lots of CMOS and stuff there. :)

Again, I do not dispute that ESD is a real phenomenon, and that it has the potential to damage TTL parts. To go back to a secondary point I made in the OP, I also think that it is not impossible that hard water can leave residue that can be conductive to the point where a short occurs. I just don't think it happens very often, to the point that I just don't worry about it. Is an ESD event as far out as a hard water short? I seriously doubt it, but that's just my intuition.


Most of us here are hobbyists, and don't do this for a living, we do it for fun. We do it because we enjoy these damn things. We come here to ask questions and because we don't know. I just don't want someone to take away that "the collected wisdom here says" its fake.
I get that, I understand it, and I agree.
I apologize for everything else.
Again, no worries!

I hope we're understanding each other a bit better. And I'm being completely serious when I say again: Thanks for your input.
 
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