Upright DOT - Squawk & Talk

bungy · Jul 2, 2010

My DOT SSIO does not have anything at A3. My Tron board does.

EDIT: Strike that, reverse it. Tron doesn't have the chip at A3, but DOT does. I'll see if I can dig up another one of those chips to try after I fool around with the ROMs

clay_cowgill said:
There's a 74LS273 at location A3 on the SSIO, if that's not working, then the S+T isn't going to get the command to play a sound. An SSIO board swap might be educational if he has a spare...

-Clay

bungy · Jul 2, 2010

Hmmm...

According to the MAME roms, here is what I've found so far:
-EDOT uses same SSIO roms as UDOT, at least there are no SSIO roms in the EDOT rom archive
-There are two versions of DOT, "regular" and "alternate"
-I have the "alternate" SSIO roms
-I have 4 EDOT ROMs on my CPU board.

I am going to reburn my romset using DOT roms and see where that puts me

bungy · Jul 2, 2010

I verified that all the roms on the DOT boards are correct except for the 4 noted above. Reburned them, but I got no change in the behavior I am seeing.

Incidentally, the rom update fixed another issue I was having where I could only play in two player mode: http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1246500#post1246500

Current status:
-On power up, S&T board LED emits one quick flash followed by 4 flashes for a total of 5.
-Test button on S&T board plays all voices through DOT speaker system.
-Attempting to play any voice from the test menu results in a popping sound and no voice.
-While playing the game, a popping noise can be heard when it should be playing a voice

At this point I believe it is a hardware problem. I just don't know which board is the problem.

Next steps:
-Send out S&T board to verify it is working properly - I have already had an offer for this service
-Attempt to locate a working 74LS273 chip to swap out on SSIO board.

bungy · Jul 2, 2010

bungy said:
Next steps:
-Send out S&T board to verify it is working properly - I have already had an offer for this service
-Attempt to locate a working 74LS273 chip to swap out on SSIO board.

I located a 74LS273 and installed it in a Tron SSIO board. Installed the DOT roms & jumpers on that board and swapped it into the rack. Got a sound board error on boot up.

I noticed some of the other socketed chips were different on the DOT board, so I swapped the two sound chips and the two chips flanking the roms and I got sound again.

But I got the same symptoms with the Squawk & Talk. Talks fine with the test button, but only makes a popping noise when on the test menu or in game.

I'm now leaning towards a problem with the Squawk & Talk. I will get that checked out next.

clay_cowgill · Jul 3, 2010

This is a bit of a guess, but if you want to give it a try...

The S+T in DOT can play up to 16 phrases. There are four signal lines going to the S+T on connector J1, plus a select. 2^4 = 16. If it were me back in the day, I'd probably have it work by putting the 'number' of the sound I want to play on those four inputs, and then toggle (or hold) the 'select' line to latch in the sound command and play the phrase.

The inputs have pullup resistors, so if you want to try a little experiment, disconnect the S+T from the SSIO board, but keep it powered. Use a couple alligator clips/jumpers connected to ground and clip it to one of the pins (1-2-3-4) on the S+T J1 connector. Then take another clip and connect one end to ground and touch the other end to pin 8 on J1 of the S+T.

Try a couple variations-- briefly short pin 8, J1 to ground, maybe hold it to ground for a while, etc. and see if you get a voice sample played. Try moving the other clip to a different pin (1-4) and try strobing Pin8,J1 to ground again.

If it doesn't do anything, we just didn't learn anything. Maybe it doesn't work like I think it does. BUT-- if it *does* play a sound, you know the S+T is capable of accepting a command and is probably good. So the problem has to be on the SSIO or wiring.[EDIT: I shouldn't say "has to be on the SSIO", more like "could be". For example if Pin 14 on B8 of the SSIO isn't working than a command sent to the latch wouldn't make it, etc. The 'clicking/popping' instead of phrases you hear is interesting though. Kinda makes it seem like the command is getting to the S+T. Strange.]

Incidentally, when I check the MAME source checksums I see different values for the UDOT vs. EDOT versions:

Code:

 ROM_START( dotrona )
 ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "ssiocpu", 0 )
[...]
 ROM_LOAD( "asound0.a7",   0x00000, 0x1000, CRC(7fb54293) SHA1(6d538a3e48f98e269623850f1f6774848a89fd59) )
 ROM_LOAD( "asound1.a8",   0x01000, 0x1000, CRC(edef7326) SHA1(5c9a64604252eea0628bf9d6221e8add82f66abe) )
 ROM_LOAD( "sound2.a9",    0x02000, 0x1000, CRC(e8ef6519) SHA1(261b0463a73b403bc46df3e04f3d12173787d6e7) )
 ROM_LOAD( "sound3.a10",   0x03000, 0x1000, CRC(6b5aeb02) SHA1(039d8d664f067bc0d085ad7730ef63dbd6dc387e) )

compared to:

Code:

ROM_START( dotrone )
[...]
ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "ssiocpu", 0 )
ROM_LOAD( "loc-a",        0x00000, 0x1000, CRC(2de6a8a8) SHA1(6bba00daed8836297f3189db4e4fe8e158adc465) )
ROM_LOAD( "loc-b",        0x01000, 0x1000, CRC(4097663e) SHA1(afb5224529550cec378415a5cd81b47f6c6c101b) )
ROM_LOAD( "loc-c",        0x02000, 0x1000, CRC(f576b9e7) SHA1(4ff39c46c390aa93d900f5f7a0b35fa71f066863) )
ROM_LOAD( "loc-d",        0x03000, 0x1000, CRC(74b0059e) SHA1(1fe393721446538036fb6110fdc3920959ebd596) )

That would make sense to me-- the EDOT probably has some handling in there for panning, etc.

-Clay

bungy · Jul 3, 2010

Sounds logical, but it didn't work. I tired a bunch of different pin combos but didn't get any pops or anything. Thanks for the insight though.

I thought the loc-a ... loc-d roms went on the video board? I didn't see any files labeled "sound" in the dotrone archive so I assumed it was just using the ones from dotron & dotrona.

clay_cowgill said:
This is a bit of a guess, but if you want to give it a try...

The S+T in DOT can play up to 16 phrases. There are four signal lines going to the S+T on connector J1, plus a select. 2^4 = 16. If it were me back in the day, I'd probably have it work by putting the 'number' of the sound I want to play on those four inputs, and then toggle (or hold) the 'select' line to latch in the sound command and play the phrase.

The inputs have pullup resistors, so if you want to try a little experiment, disconnect the S+T from the SSIO board, but keep it powered. Use a couple alligator clips/jumpers connected to ground and clip it to one of the pins (1-2-3-4) on the S+T J1 connector. Then take another clip and connect one end to ground and touch the other end to pin 8 on J1 of the S+T.

Try a couple variations-- briefly short pin 8, J1 to ground, maybe hold it to ground for a while, etc. and see if you get a voice sample played. Try moving the other clip to a different pin (1-4) and try strobing Pin8,J1 to ground again.

If it doesn't do anything, we just didn't learn anything. Maybe it doesn't work like I think it does. BUT-- if it *does* play a sound, you know the S+T is capable of accepting a command and is probably good. So the problem has to be on the SSIO or wiring.[EDIT: I shouldn't say "has to be on the SSIO", more like "could be". For example if Pin 14 on B8 of the SSIO isn't working than a command sent to the latch wouldn't make it, etc. The 'clicking/popping' instead of phrases you hear is interesting though. Kinda makes it seem like the command is getting to the S+T. Strange.]

Incidentally, when I check the MAME source checksums I see different values for the UDOT vs. EDOT versions:

Code:

ROM_START( dotrona ) ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "ssiocpu", 0 ) [...] ROM_LOAD( "asound0.a7", 0x00000, 0x1000, CRC(7fb54293) SHA1(6d538a3e48f98e269623850f1f6774848a89fd59) ) ROM_LOAD( "asound1.a8", 0x01000, 0x1000, CRC(edef7326) SHA1(5c9a64604252eea0628bf9d6221e8add82f66abe) ) ROM_LOAD( "sound2.a9", 0x02000, 0x1000, CRC(e8ef6519) SHA1(261b0463a73b403bc46df3e04f3d12173787d6e7) ) ROM_LOAD( "sound3.a10", 0x03000, 0x1000, CRC(6b5aeb02) SHA1(039d8d664f067bc0d085ad7730ef63dbd6dc387e) )

compared to:

Code:

ROM_START( dotrone ) [...] ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "ssiocpu", 0 ) ROM_LOAD( "loc-a", 0x00000, 0x1000, CRC(2de6a8a8) SHA1(6bba00daed8836297f3189db4e4fe8e158adc465) ) ROM_LOAD( "loc-b", 0x01000, 0x1000, CRC(4097663e) SHA1(afb5224529550cec378415a5cd81b47f6c6c101b) ) ROM_LOAD( "loc-c", 0x02000, 0x1000, CRC(f576b9e7) SHA1(4ff39c46c390aa93d900f5f7a0b35fa71f066863) ) ROM_LOAD( "loc-d", 0x03000, 0x1000, CRC(74b0059e) SHA1(1fe393721446538036fb6110fdc3920959ebd596) )

That would make sense to me-- the EDOT probably has some handling in there for panning, etc.

-Clay

clay_cowgill · Jul 3, 2010

bungy said:
Sounds logical, but it didn't work. I tired a bunch of different pin combos but didn't get any pops or anything. Thanks for the insight though.

Interesting... I know I have a S+T board somewhere; if I can find it this holiday weekend I'll try to mess with it too. Prowling around in the code just now I realized that there's *more* than 16 phrases, so yeah, it must be latching in more than one nibble.

(this probably doesn't help your problem, but for future generations that might be interested... ;-)

At 0xF180 in the S+T EDOT code the A register essentially has the "sound command" value. It is sort of a strange mapping though, so maybe it's latching in two nibbles for each command or something.

A Register value @0xF180
0x28 = "thank you..."
0x29 = "nice"
0x2A = "greetings..."
0x2B = "MCP..."
0x2C = "finish the game"
0x2D = "You'll..."
0x2E = "logic probe"
0x2F = "take him" ("sieze him"?)
0x30 = "We'll get..."
0x31 = "no bit brain"
0x32 = "had enough"
0x33 = "I don't know..."
0x34 = "sark!"
0x35 = laugh (not in test mode)
0x36 = laugh1
0x37 = laugh2
0x38 = laugh3

The laugh triggered by 0x35 seems to be constructed from using the other laugh samples (not sure if it's just changing the clock rate or what) since I've accounted for all the sample data at this point...

I thought the loc-a ... loc-d roms went on the video board? I didn't see any files labeled "sound" in the dotrone archive so I assumed it was just using the ones from dotron & dotrona.

Yeah, the ROMs in the EDOT set are sort-of unfortunately named... There are loc-a..d ROMs on the video board, but they have a different suffix in the ROM set than the SSIO board ROMs which are also named loc-a..d:

Code:

ROM_START( dotrone )
      ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "maincpu", 0 )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-cpu1",     0x00000, 0x4000, CRC(eee31b8c) SHA1(c05ad1d10588a6c1050c608f1a473685ebe4daad) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-cpu2",     0x04000, 0x4000, CRC(75ba6ad3) SHA1(d02c3d731073fb6083bd8f771f76338939384a07) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-cpu3",     0x08000, 0x4000, CRC(94bb1a0e) SHA1(af4769fac39e67eff840675bf93cc4304f2875fd) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-cpu4",     0x0c000, 0x2000, CRC(c137383c) SHA1(ccf7cf9c7c0528aa819cfca34c1c0e89ab2d586a) )
  
      ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "ssiocpu", 0 )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-a",        0x00000, 0x1000, CRC(2de6a8a8) SHA1(6bba00daed8836297f3189db4e4fe8e158adc465) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-b",        0x01000, 0x1000, CRC(4097663e) SHA1(afb5224529550cec378415a5cd81b47f6c6c101b) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-c",        0x02000, 0x1000, CRC(f576b9e7) SHA1(4ff39c46c390aa93d900f5f7a0b35fa71f066863) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-d",        0x03000, 0x1000, CRC(74b0059e) SHA1(1fe393721446538036fb6110fdc3920959ebd596) )
  
      ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "sntcpu", 0 )
      ROM_LOAD( "pre.u3",       0x09000, 0x1000, CRC(c3d0f762) SHA1(a1857641c35b5bcb33f29fe79a1a581c4cbf129b) )
      ROM_LOAD( "pre.u4",       0x0a000, 0x1000, CRC(7ca79b43) SHA1(c995e1e67d70706a090eb777e9fec0f1ba03f82d) )
      ROM_LOAD( "pre.u5",       0x0b000, 0x1000, CRC(24e9618e) SHA1(eb245ff381a76b314a0ed3519e140444afae341c) )
  
      ROM_REGION( 0x04000, "gfx1", 0 )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-bg2.6f",   0x00000, 0x2000, CRC(40167124) SHA1(782c8192dd58a3f23ff2338452dd03206d79030a) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-bg1.5f",   0x02000, 0x2000, CRC(bb2d7a5d) SHA1(8044be9ffca9520fd77e0da492147e553f9f7da3) )
  
      ROM_REGION( 0x10000, "gfx2", 0 )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-g.cp4",    0x00000, 0x2000, CRC(57a2b1ff) SHA1(b97539ffd2f5fc8b86fc2f8f233cc26ba16f82ee) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-h.cp3",    0x02000, 0x2000, CRC(3bb4d475) SHA1(3795ba1640790041da51ebeac8517cc7d32e243e) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-e.cp6",    0x04000, 0x2000, CRC(ce957f1a) SHA1(24177a8dd6dcb377cf8aee7c7b47b26f29e77e20) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-f.cp5",    0x06000, 0x2000, CRC(d26053ce) SHA1(b7fb3d1df9b80c056cf131574565addb529645e1) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-c.cp8",    0x08000, 0x2000, CRC(ef45d146) SHA1(6cd83909b4376abce287e435a10e5bc25e18b265) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-d.cp7",    0x0a000, 0x2000, CRC(5e8a3ef3) SHA1(74983c922eae1326ecd0ff14000851e0b424cc61) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-a.cp0",    0x0c000, 0x2000, CRC(b35f5374) SHA1(3f330ffde52ac57c02dfdf8e105aefcc10f87a0b) )
      ROM_LOAD( "loc-b.cp9",    0x0e000, 0x2000, CRC(565a5c48) SHA1(9dfafd58bd552bfda4e1799a175735ecc1369ba3) )
  
      ROM_REGION( 0x0040, "proms", 0 )
      ROM_LOAD( "82s123.12d",   0x0000, 0x0020, CRC(e1281ee9) SHA1(9ac9b01d24affc0ee9227a4364c4fd8f8290343a) )    /* from shollow, assuming it's the same */
      ROM_LOAD( "edotlamp.u2",  0x0020, 0x0020, CRC(fb58b867) SHA1(45beb55f2c2e9197f091fc06e9a2f595e57e5c93) )    /* lamp sequencer PROM */
ROM_END

Jedidentist · Jul 7, 2010

My board came today! Wired it all up, but have to wait until tomorrow for a 13k resistor

Jedidentist · Jul 8, 2010

Okay...couldn't find a 13k resistor. I've got 12k, 15k, and 1k. Can I use just 1 of those or a 12k and 1k in series to add up to 13k? I'm dying to get home and connect this last resistor and see what happens!

bungy · Jul 8, 2010

Jedidentist said:
Can I use just 1 of those or a 12k and 1k in series to add up to 13k?

As far as I know, yes. Solder them together and measure to double check. Pretty sure I have done this on a deflection board before.

Jedidentist · Jul 8, 2010

Soldered the 12k and 1k together and got 13...duh. And........Sark now says, "Greetings!" My connections are a little sketchy...all of those alligator clips are dying to work loose...but for now, I've got a fully functioning DOT-ES (Environmental Sounds!). Thanks everyone!!!

bungy · Jul 8, 2010

Awesome, glad to hear you got it working!

Still haven't made any progress with mine. I'm going to send my S&T board out soon to verify whether it works or not in game. Then I'll know where to focus my efforts.

Jedidentist · Jul 9, 2010

If you don't have anyone to send it to, I can get you the name of the guys I bought my board from, and they tested it for me prior to sending it. Don't know if they could repair it, but maybe they could.

bungy · Jul 9, 2010

Actually I got an offer to test it, just need to ship it out. If it comes back negative, I'll be in touch though.

bungy · Sep 27, 2010

I was playing around with this some more and it occurred to me that the grounds on the SSIO and the S&T board are not the same. That is, the game board is running off the original linear power supply and I have the S&T (+5 & -5) powered by an external switcher (since the linear doesn't have -5).

My intention was to extend the power board by adding a -5 output and then power the S&T board natively when I got it working.

So I connected game ground to the switcher's ground and now I get SOMETHING in test mode (and game mode). When I go to the test menu, instead of getting pops when I select a voice, I get the sound that's played at the end of the test cycle when the button is pushed on the S&T board. But then that's only for the first four or so voices - the rest don't do anything, not even pop anymore. I have verified the ROM checksums on S&T & SSIO and they are good.

I am stumped again. I tested with another SSIO and got the same results. I also replaced every socketed chip on the S&T except the AD558. Should I try running the whole thing off the switcher? Any other ideas or insights?

bungy · Sep 29, 2010

I ran the whole game plus the S&T board off the switcher, but then I got no audio at all. I was using the regular HAPP switcher, not the heavy duty one. Maybe I should try the heavy duty one next.

vintagegamer · Sep 29, 2010

Geez bungy, that thing's really giving you a fight. Wish I could provide you with more suggestions on how to get her going again.

Jedidentist · Sep 29, 2010

I don't know if that will make any difference, but Arcadeshop recommends the heavy duty on with their adapter.

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