Under no circumstances will any RAM Controls parts be allowed for sale here.

In my observation, this ban appears to be more emotionally driven than rationally driven.

Let's ask some questions: (And please try to address these rationally, not emotionally).

As I've mentioned in earlier comments, what is the goal here? It is important to be clear on what you're trying to achieve through this ban.

If you're trying to hurt RAM/Dave/etc, I'm not sure how this will do anything to accomplish that, as if he is selling parts, he will just do that elsewhere. If anything, you're making it *easier* for him (and more dangerous for any newcomers) by forcing him to do it outside of a community, which can educate and warn people about this situation.

Think about that for a minute. This ban actually puts people at greater risk.

In addition, I have not heard, read, or seen any evidence of anyone actually being scammed by RAM in a long time. Is there any evidence of this? Please provide it, if so, and educate me.

But if not, as visionik says, we can't continue to see RAM down every dark hallway.

While many people know there are what appear to be RAM-looking parts making their way into the community, many/most appear to be legitimately purchased by legitimate members here.

Restricting perfectly legitimate and well-known members from buying and selling parts, which they legitimately bought with legitimate money, does not do this community any good. It actually hurts the community, as it gives people yet another reason to go elsewhere.

If we want this community to be strong, resilient, and continue to exist, we need to give people MORE reasons to stay here, and fewer reasons to leave. And personally I don't believe that is happening. (And if anything, it has been the opposite.)

If you want to ban the guy, ban the guy. I'm fully with you on that. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to not allow a scam artist to be part of this community. And mods have done a good job at doing this in the past.

But hurting legitimate members, who legitimately want to sell parts they purchased legitimately, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and cuts way too far in the other direction. Painfully so.

The solution is to educate people, raise awareness as much as possible and deal with the real issue (i.e., if an individual is actively here trying to scam others). But cutting off both legs because there 'might' be cancer in them is too extreme, and will ultimately kill the patient.

Don't kill the patient.
 
In my observation, this ban appears to be more emotionally driven than rationally driven.

Let's ask some questions: (And please try to address these rationally, not emotionally).

As I've mentioned in earlier comments, what is the goal here? It is important to be clear on what you're trying to achieve through this ban.

If you're trying to hurt RAM/Dave/etc, I'm not sure how this will do anything to accomplish that, as if he is selling parts, he will just do that elsewhere. If anything, you're making it *easier* for him (and more dangerous for any newcomers) by forcing him to do it outside of a community, which can educate and warn people about this situation.

Think about that for a minute. This ban actually puts people at greater risk.

In addition, I have not heard, read, or seen any evidence of anyone actually being scammed by RAM in a long time. Is there any evidence of this? Please provide it, if so, and educate me.

But if not, as visionik says, we can't continue to see RAM down every dark hallway.

While many people know there are what appear to be RAM-looking parts making their way into the community, many/most appear to be legitimately purchased by legitimate members here.

Restricting perfectly legitimate and well-known members from buying and selling parts, which they legitimately bought with legitimate money, does not do this community any good. It actually hurts the community, as it gives people yet another reason to go elsewhere.

If we want this community to be strong, resilient, and continue to exist, we need to give people MORE reasons to stay here, and fewer reasons to leave. And personally I don't believe that is happening. (And if anything, it has been the opposite.)

If you want to ban the guy, ban the guy. I'm fully with you on that. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to not allow a scam artist to be part of this community. And mods have done a good job at doing this in the past.

But hurting legitimate members, who legitimately want to sell parts they purchased legitimately, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and cuts way too far in the other direction. Painfully so.

The solution is to educate people, raise awareness as much as possible and deal with the real issue (i.e., if an individual is actively here trying to scam others). But cutting off both legs because there 'might' be cancer in them is too extreme, and will ultimately kill the patient.

Don't kill the patient.

I think the goal of the ban is that a lot of these parts should have gone to people who paid for them and got scammed.

The concern here is that new RAM parts are now coming out. (We'll say new production for the argument here.)

Any new parts, should go to those who paid for and never got them first.

If RAM wanted to clear their name, they/he/you would just need to ship said parts to those who are owed them.

Until those who are owed parts get them, think of this as a trade embargo against RAM.

AND we won't let RAM "distribute" the parts through other channels to get around the embargo.
 
I think the goal of the ban is that a lot of these parts should have gone to people who paid for them and got scammed.

The concern here is that new RAM parts are now coming out. (We'll say new production for the argument here.)

Any new parts, should go to those who paid for and never got them first.

If RAM wanted to clear their name, they/he/you would just need to ship said parts to those who are owed them.

Until those who are owed parts get them, think of this as a trade embargo against RAM.

AND we won't let RAM "distribute" the parts through other channels to get around the embargo.


Ok, I see that logic, and genuinely empathize with people who lost money. And I would fully agree with that reasoning, if *he* was actually selling them. But he isn't.

Thus a ban makes innocent people, who already have parts, pay for the crimes of someone else.

But the biggest thing is that it doesn't really do anything to stop the trade of these parts. It just pushes it into other places where it is less visible (and hence more dangerous).
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

It's like the war on drugs. Making it illegal is only going to foster the black market in this case. It will take work to enforce a ban, will simply frustrate and/or drive away most people involved, and not help achieve any constructive goal.
 
Sorry guys but there just is no debate.

If you have the parts and want to sell them, do it elsewhere. If you don't like that, well, too bad.
 
Sorry guys but there just is no debate.

If you have the parts and want to sell them, do it elsewhere. If you don't like that, well, too bad.



So much for reason.

I suggest you start enforcing immediately in that case, as I'm aware of at least one current thread where potential RAM parts are being offered.

I'm also interested to know how you intend to determine how/when people are selling legitimate original parts, vs RAM versions of the same things, and not penalize people who may have true original parts to sell. How are you planning to require that people prove that their SW yokes or LL thrusters, etc, are not from RAM?

Sounds like a lot of work. I hope you have the time.
 
If anyone has time to kill and wants to read about Adam and Jan from 17yrs ago-

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.video.arcade.collecting/dUYkn0mB_Qo

Some of the guys in this thread are on KLOV I'd guess.

Thanks for posting that. Thing is, there were far more people who were screwed from Adam and also Randy Buffalo that stayed silent or left collecting all together because of this. It's a bad memory. One we should do our best to educate so it doesn't happen again.

I started a deal with Adam and when he acted suspicious I walked away. Randy Buffalo held onto one of my games until my atty uncle found him and started having fun with him. Suddenly the game showed up and I wasn't even charged for shipping.

Fuck Ram. Whatever the MODS feel they need to do I'm 100% behind. There are other forums and outlets to sell his parts.
 
Let's be clear about something guys. If you don't "understand", it simply means ...YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. You are not "correct" because you don't understand. You are wrong. In every single sense, you are wrong. And if you aren't selling the parts who the hell gives a shit how it is enforced?


He is still selling parts here. How do you think many sets of 720 joystick, and star wars yoke kits showed up last week for sale?
 
As an old timer from the RGVAC/RGVAC/RGP days, and one who was screwed around by several of those "crooks", I also fully support the MODS and the intent of this thread.
 
I have to say, it's kind of silly (in my opinion) to ban PARTS from being sold.

It's not the PARTS that are the problem.... it's the person SELLING the parts.

I agree with others who have posted: Ban the loser who made the parts several years ago. He's obviously a crook.

But banning the parts he made? What's the point? The guy who made them is long gone from the scene. Banning the stuff he made accomplishes nothing.

If honest hobbyists on the forums want to sell items made years ago by a jerk, let them.

Just my 2-cents.
 
The ban is not practical, I think we all know that - it's gonna be a integrity thing whether or not you comply. But, it's fuetile to argue with people who are Administrators or Mods, it will lead no where. So let's just agree to disagree about the parts and say:

"Ban..... Noted"
 
Let's be clear about something guys. If you don't "understand", it simply means ...YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. You are not "correct" because you don't understand. You are wrong. In every single sense, you are wrong.


Who exactly are you referring to here? (And what specifically is not being understood?)

If it's me Dylan, please clarify specifically, either openly, or via PM. But just telling people they are wrong without any information to help them understand what they're missing, literally helps nobody.


And if you aren't selling the parts who the hell gives a shit how it is enforced?


I give a shit how things are enforced. And here's why.

Specifically because policies that piss off/annoy/confuse/discourage/frustrate/inconvenience/penalize, or otherwise further motivate perfectly good people to not want to participate here anymore, and migrate to other arcade communities, HURT THIS FORUM. Plain and simple.

I apologize for the caps, but that's my ultimate point here. It's the bigger picture. From what I (and other people) see, the growing negative outside opinion of this place, due to things that are encouraging people to leave and create communities elsewhere, is damaging this community *far more* than one potential has-been scammer, whose parts are being legitimately bought and sold by legitimate people here.

It's happened to other communities in the past, and my concern, as a very active participant and ardent supporter of this place, is that I don't want KLOV to fall victim to the same patterns that have suffocated other forums, though attrition.

We ALL agree nobody wants to see anyone get ripped off or taken advantage of. There's no debate there. It's the specific solution, and how it is implemented and enforced that is more unclear.
 
The amount ripped off from members (and others) is in the 10's of thousands. These people are still owed money. Now you or someone else gets a pm or an email, or meet a local guy that has 20 star wars yoke rebuild kits. Or 10-720 joysticks. $10 each you can have them. No-brainer right?

You can help the community by selling them at a profit to yourself and at a (relatively speaking), cheap price.

But it's not helping the community. It's continuing to be a slap in the face to everyone that is still owed money. New parts are showing up. There is zero doubt about that. Everyone says "oh he's a respected member, I've been to his house". Maybe that is true. This guy isn't going to rip someone off. That is NOT the point.

I guess I'm wrong.

You guys do understand, you just don't care.
 
It's continuing to be a slap in the face to everyone that is still owed money. New parts are showing up. There is zero doubt about that. Everyone says "oh he's a respected member, I've been to his house". Maybe that is true. This guy isn't going to rip someone off. That is NOT the point.

I have no dog in this fight, and neither condone nor condemn the ban, but this statement just reinforces the notion that the ban is emotional, not pragmatic. I completely understand the sting of getting ripped off, but to get ripped off, but now STILL can't get the parts to fix your Star Wars (et. al.) is just as much salting the wound.

But the ban does have a cathartic effect. It may not achieve the stated purpose (keeping RAM off the forum), but at least you feel better getting another punch in on the offender. :)
 
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I have no dog in this fight, and neither condone nor condemn the ban, but this statement just reinforces the notion that the ban is emotional, not pragmatic. I completely understand the sting of getting ripped off, but to get ripped off, but now STILL can't get the parts to fix your Star Wars (et. al.) is just as much salting the wound.

So are you suggesting that using an emotion when making a decision is a bad thing? haha


Unfortunately my supreme powers of running the universe have dwindled so I can't actually stop anyone from selling these parts as you are suggesting. As a forum we can institute a rule that prohibits them from being sold HERE. (and do our best to be fair, reasonable, and enforce this rule)
 
So are you suggesting that using an emotion when making a decision is a bad thing? haha

Nope. In fact, MOST decisions are more emotional than logical. Again, I don't support the decision (as effective against the stated problem), but I also don't have a problem with it either. Just an observer.
 
I have no dog in this fight, and neither condone nor condemn the ban, but this statement just reinforces the notion that the ban is emotional, not pragmatic. I completely understand the sting of getting ripped off, but to get ripped off, but now STILL can't get the parts to fix your Star Wars (et. al.) is just as much salting the wound.

But the ban does have a cathartic effect. It may not achieve the stated purpose (keeping RAM off the forum), but at least you feel better getting another punch in on the offender. :)

If there's a part that's really needed then we get an interest thread together and throw support behind Takeman/Troy, Rich, Darin, etc.. and get it made. All Adam and Jim Bloomquist did - they sent a sample or spec to China and had a box of parts made and confirmed at least in some cases didn't pay the supplier. I'd be surprised if any of it was paid for.

The allure was the cheap/too good to be true prices, as far as the parts that were actually delivered. Much of what that has either been available NOS or reproduced by Stephen(mylstar) - gears, etc..

There were a few neat things sold by him that I haven't seen elsewhere like the BZ/PP controller bezel/rings and the alternate SW cockpit handles. I'd guess he didn't get an exact copy, had them made like that, and called them 'prototype'.
 
The amount ripped off from members (and others) is in the 10's of thousands. These people are still owed money.

I think we're past the point of no return here. Nobody is getting their money back.

Isn't there a statute of limitations? Even if that doesn't apply, what if he scammed y'all so hard and has no intentions to
ever pay any of you back until his death? no court system will force a drug addict, gambling addict, jobless, homeless,
income-less human to pay anything back.

this entire thread is pointless and sigh heavy. doesn't even make sense to keep it open anymore as there is no debate.
 
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Perhaps I should just post this a PM to you andrewb instead of posting on this thread but you do raise issues that should be address in on this thread and not in pm. This is my attempt to do a bridge building and create a some understanding between two different view points.

For the record, I like you more than the Admin here so you can't accuse me of favoritism of a fellow klov member over the the Admin. Laughs!

In my observation, this ban appears to be more emotionally driven than rationally driven.

Perhaps your right and this choice to stop ram control from selling part is based on emotion compared to rationality but It is my belief that a recently banned person with a fake address who was selling ram control parts was ram control or tied closely into ram control.
I think the banning of that person started the refocusing attention on ram control and ram control products.

Let's ask some questions: (And please try to address these rationally, not emotionally).

As I've mentioned in earlier comments, what is the goal here? It is important to be clear on what you're trying to achieve through this ban.

If you're trying to hurt RAM/Dave/etc, I'm not sure how this will do anything to accomplish that, as if he is selling parts, he will just do that elsewhere. If anything, you're making it *easier* for him (and more dangerous for any newcomers) by forcing him to do it outside of a community, which can educate and warn people about this situation.

Think about that for a minute. This ban actually puts people at greater risk.

In addition, I have not heard, read, or seen any evidence of anyone actually being scammed by RAM in a long time. Is there any evidence of this? Please provide it, if so, and educate me.

While KLOV can not control stop the sales of ram control parts on the internet, It can stop ram control from selling parts here and preventing others from selling ram control parts here on KLOV.

If a scam recently or long time ago, Is it not still a scam? Is there still a person who has lost money? Time doesn't magically return money back into some one's pockets. If someone scammed you wouldn't it be nice to know that someone or a group of collectors are still recognizing that you got scammed and is still preventing ram control from selling parts?

The proof of the need for the ban is that there are those more than willing to profit the spare parts that ram control still has. Just listen to the other collector who are pushing to allow ram control parts to be still sold here.


But if not, as visionik says, we can't continue to see RAM down every dark hallway.

While many people know there are what appear to be RAM-looking parts making their way into the community, many/most appear to be legitimately purchased by legitimate members here.

Are you an expert in ram control parts? I am not one of them but i know there are a few members who are expert in ram control parts. Different manufacturing methods produce slightly different making on the parts. An metal punch machine to make optical wheels can not produce the same makes as a laser cutting machine verse a water jet machine. They all leave different marking. I have 10 years of manufacturing and if you saw the same piece of metal produce with different methods you could tell the difference really quickly also.

Restricting perfectly legitimate and well-known members from buying and selling parts, which they legitimately bought with legitimate money, does not do this community any good. It actually hurts the community, as it gives people yet another reason to go elsewhere.

On the other hand shouldn't we ban a person who is selling ram control products even if the seller sells other non ram control parts we want to buy to fix our arcade machines? Where do you draw the line? I know others want the parts to fix their machines and are willing to ignore the fact that ram control is still active.

If we want this community to be strong, resilient, and continue to exist, we need to give people MORE reasons to stay here, and fewer reasons to leave. And personally I don't believe that is happening. (And if anything, it has been the opposite.)

This point I understand and I have my own little cyber spot on the good old interweb. It not my job to tell management here how to run their forum. I as a users on this forum follow the rules and If I don't I shouldn't be here.

If you want to ban the guy, ban the guy. I'm fully with you on that. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to not allow a scam artist to be part of this community. And mods have done a good job at doing this in the past.

But hurting legitimate members, who legitimately want to sell parts they purchased legitimately, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and cuts way too far in the other direction. Painfully so.

I trust in the way this place works, They been doing it for a long time. Some people really try hard to get banned from this place. I seen management go above and beyond to have people to get along here. It a thankless job but they seem get it done.

I think the banning of all ram control products is a bit heavy handed but with more of ram control products popping up, I understand the reasons why. Will it hurt a few sellers? yes but there was a need to stop what was happening. I hope the few sellers who are hurt by this understand that a solution had to be found..

The solution is to educate people, raise awareness as much as possible and deal with the real issue (i.e., if an individual is actively here trying to scam others). But cutting off both legs because there 'might' be cancer in them is too extreme, and will ultimately kill the patient.

Don't kill the patient.

Even when you educate people, It doesn't mean they will not be tempted to buy ram control products. This thread is evident of that fact.

If there comes a time if KLOV kills it self, I will be sad for the lost but it not my job to tell management how to run this place.
 
Looks like some yokes and thrusters just popped up on ebay. Another new username with small quantities. Also mentions havoc rollers will be available soon.

Real niceeeee
 
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