yaggy

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Here's my tale of Twin Galaxies and the world record club. Read at your leisure!


So there's this game I'm pretty good at, have been since it hit the arcades in 1984 and won some local contests on. Atari's Marble Madness. I've since owned the machine, played the hell out of it, sold it, playing it more at a friend's over the years, even tweaked the hell out of mame - which never can compare due to the inability to really get the same exact trackball sensitivity the real arcade game enlists.

In 2004, I came out to Philly Classic, an event held at a King of Prussia (PA) convention center, just to play the games provided by Quarter Arcade and Videotopia. It was packed with people in there, hot and stinky, but definitely a fun time. Turns out Robert Mruczek was there as a Twin Galaxies referee and a couple people came out of the woodwork to try for high scores. A friend encouraged me to play in front of Robert to see how I measure up, not knowing what the "world record" was. I played a warm up game or two and later told him I was gonna now give it my best if he wanted to watch. Good or bad, the game will end in about four minutes, so no big commitment on either side.

I manage to pull off a score of 143,380. I may have died once or twice - which subtracts 1,000pts each at the end, and there is no special bonus for a perfect no-loss game. The game owner gladly showed the settings which were factory/default. Later that day, I managed a 146K score but that's unofficial. My fingers and arms were quite sore later!

Greg Bond had me sign his TG scorebook and chatted for a bit. It was kind of surreal for a minute, I had to be told he held a Mappy record (coincidently, the first coin-op I ever bought for myself back in 1988) and maybe another - make trax? The next day, I went to their website and saw there was a world record of 156,970 achieved back in 1985. Wow, that's impressive. I never believed I was the "best" so it came as no shock. I even tried to think of ways I could shave another 10 seconds off my time or the feasibility of ensuring any and all black marbles were killed (bonus points) or killing the mini-monsters faster during the silly race.

I was second best and that's an achievement in itself, I thought. I mentioned it to a few friends. What a neat thing. Maybe some day I'll have a 156K run myself. I'd play my friend's machine whenever I was there, but that score just seemed slightly out of my reach no matter how hard I tried.

Then, about six months later, a new score pops up. A jaw-dropping 187,880. How in the heck is THAT possible, I thought. There's only so much to the game. The trackballs max out at a certain point, you just can't roll the marble any faster. Terminal velocity or something, but you know - there's a limit. Imagine the fastest lap time on a race track, optimal conditions and whatnot. Then imagine somebody coming by and blowing it WAY out of the water. This guy shaved over 30 seconds off the world's record, and over 40 seconds off my best. How is this possible? I let it get to me, of course, and tried to find out to no avail. The closest I came was a cryptic email that was sent to me in confidence alluding to "other secrets" -- one being some method of attracting the mini-monsters for a quick massacre, but I seriously think this is a red herring meant to explain things away and get me to shut up. Maybe I need to contact Mark Cerny, the original programmer, but that's approaching a high level of obsession.

As time goes on, I try to contact the referees and ask about verification. I am trying not to be bitter, but I wanted to explore the chance that the game settings were not verified at this new attempt. A couple videos had popped up on youtube showing sickening MM performances that don't seem humanly possible -- and in the videos are a split-screen inlay that shows a big picture of the game (a perfect image, either taken directly from the video output of the machine through a converter or video capture of a MAME performance) and a smaller window showing the arcade game control panel and the player's hands rolling the trackball. Knowing what I know about Mame, I realize you can construct an .INP file from hundreds of "save points" you can keep reloading, giving you an incredible edge for building a perfect game play event, even though it's really a playback of an unlimited number of edits to construct a visual delight. In these videos (I have seen two different ones), the camera focused on the control panel never pans up to show the video screen of the machine. If you follow all this, then you know what that means -- this person wasn't actually playing the game being displayed in the larger window.

Anyway, I ask about this stuff and propose that there's a chance, if this record was in fact witnessed, that nobody checked the game settings. If you lower the difficulty level, it adds more time to each race. I laid out a chart of this additional time, which results in bonus points at the game's end (level 6). Curiously, it added up to more than the 30,000 point difference. Well, low and behold nobody has ever responded to any of this. In fact, the scoreboard got split into two camps: rom version 1 and rom version 2-4. All existing scores were left on version 1's board.

The plot thickens even more. Recently, that 187K score had a significant variable change on it recently. It is no longer listed as having taken place in the latter part of 2004, as it had shown for years. Now it claims to be made in 1985, and also more than a month before the long-standing record. I do not have screenshots to show it when it stood at 2004, but I bet Robert or somebody else does. I wouldn't mention this tidbit if it wasn't fact.

So yeah, I know I can beat other high scores on popular titles and that's neat, but I'm not chasing after any world record dreams. Because it is filled with disappointment and a great example of how the system is all messed up and doomed. A lot of those TG scores from the 80s weren't correctly verified, some of them were completely made up but published anyway. I still think there's a lot of incredible players out there and I admire the skills on display. Beating these games is a lot of fun, work and sweat.

Not sure why I haven't shared this story before, but today it felt good to let it out in a public forum for once. I'm not bitter, I'm really not. Just want to warn new challengers about the follies of the high scores club since the general topic comes up a bunch.

MM Scoreboard: http://www.twingalaxies.com/php/scores/SeeScoreDisplay.php?pi=2&gi=7530&vi=3339&s=1
 
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I sometimes wonder if all these guys breaking records today have been practicing for decades to beat fake 25 year old scores. If I was TG, I'd be doing checksums on ROMs and thorough PCB / wiring analysis, not just checking DIP switches and calling it a day.
 
Here's my tale of Twin Galaxies and the world record club. it felt good to let it out in a public forum for once. Just want to warn new challengers about the follies of the high scores club since the general topic comes up a bunch.

I think I fall in the same boat as you. Pretty good at a game, really know all the in's and out's of it and to see a score so much better than yours, along with what you know of the game, doesn't seem humanly possible. I know that Twin Galaxies went back through and checked a bunch of the old scores (stuff from the 1980's) and deleted a bunch of entries in a bunch of games because they could not be verified and the scores were not considered possible. But that was done based on advice from the current top competitive players (Billy Mitchell, etc.). I'm guessing that since you aren't on Twin Galaxies' radar as a world top player, they would never listen to you that a score wasn't possible. Too bad. The story you presented sounds like one clearly from someone extremely knowledgeable of the game and completely believable. Maybe a contact to the author of the game would be reasonable. I don't think it would be over the top on your part.
 
Hard to say what would be fair to do about records set BITD but with regards to modern records I believe they should all have to be streamed live on the net or played live in front of a crowd at an event. Of course settings should be checked and no hacks etc as well. Actually if possible I think live event high score attempts should also be streamed on the net. To take it a step farther I think the video of the world record attempt should be archived and accessible to all as well since it serves as another degree of proof that the record is legit.

I too have at least one and probably two games that I believe I could post a world record score on but I have no motivation to do so through Twin Galaxies as I question their credibility.
 
The Spy Hunter TG record is even more dubious.

It was "verified" 20 years after the fact by an expert witness and the TG WR holder can now only duplicate scores that are 20% of the TG record.

TG clearly needs a "classic" WR score and a "modern" score verified by today's techniques.
 
The guy with the QBert record won't even talk about his since it's so shady. His wife won't even talk about it.
There's no way that record is real after having watched Leutz and the other guy stay up for days playing as it's streamed live.

Mruczek left TG over stuff like this.
 
Interesting to see how this has progressed over the years. I worked at Twin Galaxies when the game score stuff was new. Worked in the arcade and took scores over the phone, opened mail with the generic signed form of authenticity for scores, updated the little white letter board hanging with some of the top games when scores changed (Pole Position, Frogger, etc), and typing scores into the database on the tandy model 1 or 3 (i forget which one it was) computer in the backroom. it is a splendid memory of a very brief moment of arcade history in the 80s.......

And what was most fun was getting to talk to game players from outside of our little town. Now it has turned into something completely different than the quaint little social event it was.
 
While I've never actually attempted a score for Twin Galaxies, I've been interested in watching their actions for a long time. I've had a similar incident to yours yaggy, back in 1994, I was playing in the Blockbuster World Videogame Championship, I was all set to go to the finals, when in mid-week I dropped in to see if my score was still on-top, and the ref. there "Couldn't find" my score.

Then when the finalists were announced I was suddenly dropped from 1st. That always nagged me in the back of my brain.

However, the moral of our two stories are the same:

Whenever there is an element of the competition outside of a referee's control, the results are ultimatley unreliable. It is for this reason that I will never attempt a score for Twin Galaxies -- not because I think they are dishonest, but because I believe that some of the players most assuredley are.

And other factors related to non-live play are also introduced... for example, there are a few games I am absoluteley a pro-level on, and I am very confident of my abilities against another live opponent, however I have a decent chance of losing against a player online in those same games -- not just because of lag, but also the unknown situation of my opponent. I've fought more than a few players using programmable controllers with scripts and macros set to do all the special moves in one button in Street Fighter. I've also competed against item cheaters and course glitchers in Mario Kart.
In my opinion, any non-live play is not fit for official use in any way.

Some people may disagree with that, but it is the best way to ensure honesty in the results. As both yaggy and myself know well, it seems.
 
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I think he was sexually assaulted by a MAME cab. He complains about MAME regardless of the topic.

See, I didn't get that impression. I assumed he was the one that sexually assaulted a MAME cab, and he was just trying to make it sound like the MAME cab asked for it.
 
I think KidVidiot was referring to how easy it is to cheat with MAME.

I wish I could defend T.G. but they have moved out of touch with the gamers. It's difficult to get answers and resolutions to many issues.

Walter is no longer running the show and there has been a mass exodus from the T.G. forums, which have become highly censored.

Scores with no real validation are lumped in with scores achieved live in front of T.G. refs. And there is inconsistency between games as far as how scores are to be recorded.

To address some of the things said above. Billy Mitchell gave little advice on any games outside of Donkey Kong and Pac-man, and was never responsible for accepting or discarding scores. Outside of some promotional things he's had no real association with T.G. for many years now.

The Spy Hunter record was not verified "20 years after the fact". It had been temporarily removed and investigated before being reinstated.

As for Q*bert. As far as I'm concerned the world record is held by Rick Carter, who is also the holder of the arcade endurance record.(ie: Longest game on one credit).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
 
I think KidVidiot was referring to how easy it is to cheat with MAME.

I wish I could defend T.G. but they have moved out of touch with the gamers. It's difficult to get answers and resolutions to many issues.

Walter is no longer running the show and there has been a mass exodus from the T.G. forums, which have become highly censored.

Scores with no real validation are lumped in with scores achieved live in front of T.G. refs. And there is inconsistency between games as far as how scores are to be recorded.

To address some of the things said above. Billy Mitchell gave little advice on any games outside of Donkey Kong and Pac-man, and was never responsible for accepting or discarding scores. Outside of some promotional things he's had no real association with T.G. for many years now.

The Spy Hunter record was not verified "20 years after the fact". It had been temporarily removed and investigated before being reinstated.

As for Q*bert. As far as I'm concerned the world record is held by Rick Carter, who is also the holder of the arcade endurance record.(ie: Longest game on one credit).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

> The Spy Hunter record was not verified "20 years after the fact". It had been temporarily removed and investigated before being reinstated.

It was removed and then after someone came forward and said that they witnessed it 20 years prior it was reinstated.

What a joke.
 
I think KidVidiot was referring to how easy it is to cheat with MAME.

Sure, you can do a save state and practice a hard level over without shlepping through the whole game (DK 3rd elevators is probably a good example of where it will really help someone refine their skills quickly).

Should it really be considered cheating when everyone has access to it for free?
I don't think so. Seems just as easy to say its pushing classic gaming forward by making it more mainstream and giving people the tools to sharpen their skills.

Billy Mitchell should be using it, because about 5 people that learned with MAME can now whip his ass at DK.
 
Sure, you can do a save state and practice a hard level over without shlepping through the whole game (DK 3rd elevators is probably a good example of where it will really help someone refine their skills quickly).

Should it really be considered cheating when everyone has access to it for free?
I don't think so. Seems just as easy to say its pushing classic gaming forward by making it more mainstream and giving people the tools to sharpen their skills.

Billy Mitchell should be using it, because about 5 people that learned with MAME can now whip his ass at DK.

I agree with you about practicing with save states, but I think what he meant was when people use save states to get a perfect run of each level, edit it together into one replay (which is possible) and then do something like film their hands mimicking it to put it on youtube like they did it normally. Nobody has a problem with MAME for practice, it's when it's used for making fake replays or videos (or subtly tweaking settings to make sure the ref doesn't notice) that it's an issue. I was incredibly close to a TG record on a MAME game that required crazy fast button mashing to kill bosses faster, and I swear the record holer had been using autofire as their pattern of fire and bombing was the exact same timing and whenever he would shoot at all it would instantly do 10 at a time with no warm up or cool down time. I never challenged it even though it was obvious autofire to a fellow player so I can't hold that against TG though. Nothing but good experiences with records stuff there for me so far.
 
I agree with you about practicing with save states, but I think what he meant was when people use save states to get a perfect run of each level, edit it together into one replay (which is possible) and then do something like film their hands mimicking it to put it on youtube like they did it normally. Nobody has a problem with MAME for practice, it's when it's used for making fake replays or videos (or subtly tweaking settings to make sure the ref doesn't notice) that it's an issue. I was incredibly close to a TG record on a MAME game that required crazy fast button mashing to kill bosses faster, and I swear the record holer had been using autofire as their pattern of fire and bombing was the exact same timing and whenever he would shoot at all it would instantly do 10 at a time with no warm up or cool down time. I never challenged it even though it was obvious autofire to a fellow player so I can't hold that against TG though. Nothing but good experiences with records stuff there for me so far.

I kinda sidetracked off yaggy's original issue and was talking about practice/cheating in general. Sorry for the confusion.
 
The Spy Hunter TG record is even more dubious.

It was "verified" 20 years after the fact by an expert witness and the TG WR holder can now only duplicate scores that are 20% of the TG record.

TG clearly needs a "classic" WR score and a "modern" score verified by today's techniques.

Here's what Paul did at this years CAX. http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showpost.php?p=1695009&postcount=62

He was just playing a casual game, turning to talk to people and losing men in the process. I was one of them a FEW times. I know him personally and have seen him play for hours on a few occasions.

Is it his score you question? Or am I missing something? MAME or some other platform? I dont see an issue with his score at all.

Hector
 
Here's what Paul did at this years CAX. http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showpost.php?p=1695009&postcount=62

He was just playing a casual game, turning to talk to people and losing men in the process. I was one of them a FEW times. I know him personally and have seen him play for hours on a few occasions.

Is it his score you question? Or am I missing something? MAME or some other platform? I dont see an issue with his score at all.

Hector

1.4 million I don't have any doubts about. He's not the only one that can pull scores in that range. I can do 800,000 myself and could break a million if I got serious about it.

But the TG WR is 7x that 1.4 million and that's entirely different.

My issue is that the 9 million + score was on the books, was questioned and pulled down, and then reinstated after Paul found someone that had witnessed it 20 years prior.

What kind of veracity in score keeping is that?

If he could get 75% of it now I'd be a lot less skeptical.

So in my mind it's pretty dubious.
 
1.4 million I don't have any doubts about. He's not the only one that can pull scores in that range. I can do 800,000 myself and could break a million if I got serious about it.

But the TG WR is 7x that 1.4 million and that's entirely different.

My issue is that the 9 million + score was on the books, was questioned and pulled down, and then reinstated after Paul found someone that had witnessed it 20 years prior.

What kind of veracity in score keeping is that?

If he could get 75% of it now I'd be a lot less skeptical.

So in my mind it's pretty dubious.


Not to mention that had anyone ever checked or seen if he is taking advantage of the glitch in the game?? It is not so obvious glitch that basically makes the game 10 x easier to play, by removing some of the toughest enemies. You can do this "glitch" once and the game is a breeze from that point on. Unless somebody REALLY knew the game well, they wouldn't even notice. There is no doubt in my mind Paul is a great Spy Hunter player...but the 9 million point score and how it was obtained is questionable.
-Mark
 
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