Time Warp pin - switch troubleshooting help pls

vintagegamer

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I am getting confused I hate to say. I'm trying to do the switch matrix check on my Time Warp pin, and even after following the marvin3m site, I'm still not making much progress.

The marvin3m site says that when you run the switch test, the number showing in the 'ball in play' field is the last switch that closed. If I run the test, the number showing in that window is currently switch 24. I can't see anything physically wrong with the switch or the wiring, and in gameplay that switch (and solenoid) are both working fine. So, I did what it said on the 3m site to do next: I unplugged the connectors 2J2 and 2J3 from the driver board to see if that would make the error go away. The display no longer showed 24, but it now displays #31 with the connectors off. That is the switch for the 5-drop target, which also works fine in gameplay as far as I remember. Also, if I go around and close various switches on the playfield by hand, the display does update with the switch I'm checking.

Basically, switch row 1 (white-brown wire) is out with the exception of 1 connection (the one going to the 5-drop target), and switch column 2 (green-red wire) is pretty much out.

I'm no pro at this stuff, but I can maneuver through the diagnostic tests and do most of what people tell me to check, and I can now solder (FINALLY), so any help would be greatly appreciated!
 
What is switch 24?

Do you have the balls removed from the game and all drop target banks reset?

If you answer yes to the second question the next thing I'd look at are the switch diodes. Faulty diodes can cause strange things to happen. Test the diodes with the power off and in diode test mode on your meter. You should get a reading of 400 to 600 one direction and nothing the other. Since there are an assload of diodes (one per switch) I'd start with the strings (column and row) that are giving you trouble...
 
What is switch 24?

Do you have the balls removed from the game and all drop target banks reset?

If you answer yes to the second question the next thing I'd look at are the switch diodes. Faulty diodes can cause strange things to happen. Test the diodes with the power off and in diode test mode on your meter. You should get a reading of 400 to 600 one direction and nothing the other. Since there are an assload of diodes (one per switch) I'd start with the strings (column and row) that are giving you trouble...

Balls are out of the game during the test, yes. During my testing I had the drop targets reset so they were all 'up' on the playfield.

I'd also wondered at one point if the game was not recognizing the ball in the drain because more than one might need to be in there, but when I put in a total of 2 balls it did not change anything. Just wanted to make sure I pointed that out bc I believe some games won't work unless the game has 2 balls in the drain.
 
You can tell how many balls most games want to see in the drain by counting the number of switches. If there is only one switch in the drain then it is only looking for one ball. There are some odd exceptions to this with newer games but this rule of thumb applies to your Time Warp.
 
You can tell how many balls most games want to see in the drain by counting the number of switches. If there is only one switch in the drain then it is only looking for one ball. There are some odd exceptions to this with newer games but this rule of thumb applies to your Time Warp.

Thanks- there's only switch in there that I am aware of.
 
If you're getting a closed switch indication with the connectors unplugged (connectors that run to the switches, that is).....you've got a board problem.

Edward
 
I was afraid of that. Tonight I got to test continuity on the wires and they were OK (for the ball drain switch) and also checked the voltages on both sides of the switch and they are showing 4.9 and 4.7V so, it's most probably the driver board. :(

I don't have the money to buy another one for $150 so I guess I will be trying to rebuild this one myself. Now taking suggestions. :(
 
I was afraid of that. Tonight I got to test continuity on the wires and they were OK (for the ball drain switch) and also checked the voltages on both sides of the switch and they are showing 4.9 and 4.7V so, it's most probably the driver board. :(

I don't have the money to buy another one for $150 so I guess I will be trying to rebuild this one myself. Now taking suggestions. :(

Go into test mode and trigger that switch repeatedly and see if the number changes. It should keep showing the same switch number. I had a problem where everytime the switch was triggered it displayed a different number. It was a bad 5101.

Also check other switches by triggering them 3-4 times and see if the number is constant.
 
Go into test mode and trigger that switch repeatedly and see if the number changes. It should keep showing the same switch number. I had a problem where everytime the switch was triggered it displayed a different number. It was a bad 5101.

Also check other switches by triggering them 3-4 times and see if the number is constant.

I think it's remaining constant but will try.
 
Alright vintagegamer, after seeing all your post on this and pinball switches......I'm feeling sorry for you;), and pulled some schematics...

I'm thinking you might have several problems......switch 24 and switch 31 do not share a column or row together........This means these two are not (probably) related.

Let's tackle 31 first....since it pops up without any switch connectors connected. Switch 31 resides in row 7, and column 4. Row 7 enters the driver board at connector J3-pin3. You've got a pull-up resistor at R83 (4.7K ohms) and a resistor R202 (1K ohms), and a buffer at IC16 (4049 CMOS chip). The signal enters/exits IC16 at legs 14 & 15.....Then you're back at the 6821 PIA at location IC11.

Column 4 enters the driver board at connector J2-pin6. Here you've got R207 (330 ohms) and a pull-up resistor R88 (4.7K ohms), then a buffer IC17 (7406). The signal exits/enters IC17 at legs 8 and 9.....before this, your at the PIA IC11 again.

Your problem switch 31 is probably gonna be in that mess somewhere. Do you have a logic probe (and know how to use it)? My gut tells me IC17.....but my gut has been wrong before:).

Here's a quick test......put your multi-meter on diode test. Put the red lead on ground....put the black lead on the chip legs mentioned above (legs 8 & 9 of IC17.....legs 14 & 15 of IC16). Do any show a short?

Edward
 
Alright vintagegamer, after seeing all your post on this and pinball switches......I'm feeling sorry for you;), and pulled some schematics...
Edward

LOL thank you for the help. I am just now seeing your post so, before I try what you have suggested further, let me first report what I found out by doing the jumper switch matrix check as you requested (the one explained via marvin3m). I can provide the full results, but the ones that are most significant right now are these:

1. the outhole-drain switch that's currently not working should read as switch 9. When the 2 pins are brought together for that switch value, they are reading switch 18.

2. the right side kicker should read as switch 41, it's reading as switch 30

3. the upper left target on switch 17 which does not work in gameplay, is reading as switch 18 during this 2J2-2J3 test.

4. outside right rollover which is not working in gameplay should read as switch 39 during this test, but it's reading as switch 38.

5. the top eject hole which is not working in gameplay should read as switch 15, but it's reading during this test as switch 14.

I'll now read the rest of elutz's post and act-respond accordingly. The help is greatly appreciated, and I can supply the full list of switch matrix results from the jumper test if needed. These 5 are the biggest concerns at the moment however (esp the blasted ball drain switch! I was able to jump across the 2 wires for the switch when I first got the game and it was working! AAARRRRGGGHH!!!).
 
Let's tackle 31 first....since it pops up without any switch connectors connected. Switch 31 resides in row 7, and column 4. Row 7 enters the driver board at connector J3-pin3. You've got a pull-up resistor at R83 (4.7K ohms) and a resistor R202 (1K ohms), and a buffer at IC16 (4049 CMOS chip). The signal enters/exits IC16 at legs 14 & 15.....Then you're back at the 6821 PIA at location IC11.

Column 4 enters the driver board at connector J2-pin6. Here you've got R207 (330 ohms) and a pull-up resistor R88 (4.7K ohms), then a buffer IC17 (7406). The signal exits/enters IC17 at legs 8 and 9.....before this, your at the PIA IC11 again.

Your problem switch 31 is probably gonna be in that mess somewhere. Do you have a logic probe (and know how to use it)? My gut tells me IC17.....but my gut has been wrong before:).

Here's a quick test......put your multi-meter on diode test. Put the red lead on ground....put the black lead on the chip legs mentioned above (legs 8 & 9 of IC17.....legs 14 & 15 of IC16). Do any show a short?

Edward

Thanks Edward, regarding switch 31, I have not yet done what you described above (only just because I just logged in and got to see your response now). BUT, I can tell you that for switch 31, when I did the 2J2-2J3 jumper test, this is one of the switches which did NOT show a stable value: specifically, the reading went 14, 22, 38, 30, 6, 30, and it stopped at 30. It never once displayed "31".

I can check what you are saying above (unfortunately no I do not have a logic probe), but didn't know if what I just provided regarding the jumper test would help you in identifying the possible issue.

Thank you again for taking the time to review this issue with me.

Jim
 
Thanks Edward, regarding switch 31, I have not yet done what you described above (only just because I just logged in and got to see your response now). BUT, I can tell you that for switch 31, when I did the 2J2-2J3 jumper test, this is one of the switches which did NOT show a stable value: specifically, the reading went 14, 22, 38, 30, 6, 30, and it stopped at 30.

All of those switches are in row 6....so, that's where the problem lies. Row 6 is connector J3-pin 4.....so, you're looking at R82 (4.7K ohms), R201 (1K), and buffer IC16 legs 6 & 7....and then the PIA IC11. Check that buffer. I bet you find a short or some funky readings.

Edward
 
All of those switches are in row 6....so, that's where the problem lies. Row 6 is connector J3-pin 4.....so, you're looking at R82 (4.7K ohms), R201 (1K), and buffer IC16 legs 6 & 7....and then the PIA IC11. Check that buffer. I bet you find a short or some funky readings.

Edward

Here are the results that I found:

IC16 leg 14=852 (on diode test)
leg 15=753

IC17 leg 8=851
leg 9=747
 
Yes, same test.....red lead on ground, black lead on the chip legs. Unplug both switch connectors while you do this....and power off.

Edward

Shit I had the power off but the connectors were still on the board. Results:

IC16 leg6: 754
leg 7: spun around a bit and stopped at 1005.

You want me to redo with the connectors off this time?
 
Shit I had the power off but the connectors were still on the board. Results:

IC16 leg6: 754
leg 7: spun around a bit and stopped at 1005.

You want me to redo with the connectors off this time?

That's not screaming bad, but leg 7 is quite a bit different than your previous reading with the other two legs. The reason I wanted the connectors unplugged so nothing under the playfield could affect the reading. You've only got two (more than likely) possibilities IC 16 or IC11.

Check those resistors too (R82 and R211).

Edward
 
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