This is why we negotiate a lower price...

quses

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This is not the first time this has happened to me, but it underlines why I don't feel guilty if I work some magic on a seller to reduce the price of a pin they offer on CL.

In this case, the seller had a Williams Jive Time posted on CL. Asking what I thought was a reasonable price for the game, but not "an offer I can't refuse"-type price, especially since it was a 3 hour drive to pick it up. The pictures looked like the machine was in pretty decent condition. I contacted the seller and explained to her that what she was asking was a few hundred dollars higher than what they'd been selling for on eBay. I low-balled her with a figure that was worth it to me to pick it up, but I also gave her some info on the sales stats for the game. I've gotten more conservative in going after games lately so I didn't think i'd get a chance to pick up this game, even though it's pretty rare and was in good condition.

Anyway, after a few days, she calls me and says she will accept my lowball offer. I still wondered whether I needed another project, but I decided to go for it. I drove about 350 miles to pick the machine up and bring it back. I was told the machine was "operating perfectly when we put it in storage" and the woman was really nice and friendly and I had no reason to doubt her.

Unfortunately, once I started examining the machine, it was obvious this was not the case.

While the game was in good condition, there were several coils that were clearly shorted and burned. One pop bumper was completely missing its coil - the bracket had broken. The machine would not power up *at all*. It was obvious this machine was completely un-playable when it was put in the shed.

However, since I low-balled the seller and got a pretty decent price, I'm not that upset. The difference between what they were asking and how much it will cost me to pick up the parts makes the deal work out. I would have been upset if I had paid the asking price only to later find out the game needed a lot of work.

In my experience, about 85% of the time, the machine is in much worse shape than what the seller claims. I'm not suggesting they are lying but we all know how high maintenance these machines are. I feel a lot better skipping over machines if they're even "fairly" priced these days, and going for the super-low deals, because the majority of the time, the games end up needing a lot more work than originally claimed.
 
Fair enough. The alternative (which wasn't really an option in this case) is to go out without haggling beforehand, and then point out all the issues that the machine has, and *then* haggling. I find it a lot easier to work on the price when you can directly point out what all is wrong with the machine, especially on mostly/completely non-working games such as this one...

Bottom line - doesn't matter if it was 100% working when it went into storage - they're selling it *now*, and it ain't working now ;)
 
I'm just glad I negotiated a lower price. Even though it was only $150, it makes me handle the discrepancy in condition better.

Ideally that's what I'd do but you don't always have time to thoroughly go over the machine. Stuff like burned out coils and missing parts don't always seem obvious when you're poking your head into a storage room without electricity.

I prefer to try to pre-negotiate with the seller, especially if I have to go out of my way to meet up. I know if I were selling something, I wouldn't want any last-minute price-changes. OTOH, I'm pretty sure I've lost some deals to people who turned me down on the same price someone low-balled them in person. So be it.

I discovered another thing.. this machine appears to have plate glass instead of tempered glass, and it's *really* sharp on the edges. It was pretty dangerous to handle.

All-in-all, if I play my cards right, I'll probably break even on the machine (not counting labor). As many of us know, even when we get a "good deal" it always ends up costing more than we thought.
 
What a disappointing thing to find after driving so far!

I had a semi similar situation where the seller claimed a pin was in mint condition. A quote from the seller was "you won't find a better shape pinball like this one anywhere" Ha! Pictures were hard to see exactly if it was or wasn't in good shape. So I took a chance and found the pin to be a 7.5 out of 10 condition. Apparently mint condition allows for scratches and scuffs in the playfield, and cabinet damage and such.

Good luck with the rebuild. The cheap ones always cost the most it seems. And get rid of that plate glass!!
 
I'm a prolific cheapskate - I hit the seller with a low offer up front, and I ALSO examine the machine for unreported issues when I arrive to pick it up.

I've mentioned this before, but snagging a deal on CL only when happens where there's either a very motivated or very uneducated seller. If you get both, then you get a screaming deal.

Case in point: I hope to pick up a machine today. It's one of my grails. It needs cabinet work, but is claimed to be in working condition. We'll see. If I get there and find issues that I couldn't see in cell phone pictures, you can bet my price will go lower with each issue I find. But I'm also willing to walk away. Mileage? About 100 miles. Gamble? You bet. But I think it will work out.

I think you'll do OK on the pin. Hopefully glass, coils, & whatever else you find puts you back in good shape. After all, this IS a hobby :)
 
Some people are dishonest, some are just clueless. I've found most CL sellers to be in the second category. They simply have no clue that stuff on their pin wasn't working because they don't pay attention, they don't know how a properly working machine should behave, they don't know the game's rules, and they just bang the ball around.

I'm going to guess that she had no clue and was just repeating what someone else told her about it working perfectly before it was put in storage. As you pointed out, you've got to be ready and expect stuff like this. Unfortunately.
 
In my experience, about 85% of the time, the machine is in much worse shape than what the seller claims. I'm not suggesting they are lying but we all know how high maintenance these machines are. I feel a lot better skipping over machines if they're even "fairly" priced these days, and going for the super-low deals, because the majority of the time, the games end up needing a lot more work than originally claimed.

85% of the time they're much worse than advertised? If that number is even close to accurate you have the worst luck of any collector I've ever known. It's probably also a function of buying the cheapest junk possible. That can definitely lead to disappointment.

The bottom line is that a lot of people who own pinball machines don't know much about them. I've bought lots of games, even from collectors, that claimed 100% working but had problems like lamps not working, etc... Major problems that I was unaware of before buying are not all that common for me though.

EDIT: A better title for this thread would definitely be "this is why we look at the game before buying". Obviously that's not always an option but it's definitely the lesson here. The price likely could have been reduced even more as a result.
 
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...and with eBay you can end up with this pin that was "in great shape for its age".

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=179682

Nowhere in the photos in the listing could you see the bubbles on the playfield, packing tape, or STAPLES(!!!). My friend who went through with the bidding was made very clear that even though the guy said "Yeah, it's in great shape. It worked last time I played it... six years ago." that it would probably not be in working condition and is pretty risky to buy a pin unseen. However, given the rarity of the theme and the fact that he just opened up a new bike shop, he jumped on it at $200. Apart from the shipping (Thanks, Michelle!) it was worth it considering I'm not sure he'd see this title in the USA again.
 
Well, I guess we'll see if it was worth it actually. I'm the one doing the work trying to save that PF!
 
Speaking of "clueless sellers" - this is especially true with EM pin's. Any time I see an EM being sold listed as "working" or "partially working" because it "lights up", I have to laugh...

If getting the bulbs working are all it take to have a working, fully functional EM pin, I think more folks would have them ;)
 
Case in point: I hope to pick up a machine today. It's one of my grails. It needs cabinet work, but is claimed to be in working condition. We'll see. If I get there and find issues that I couldn't see in cell phone pictures, you can bet my price will go lower with each issue I find. But I'm also willing to walk away. Mileage? About 100 miles. Gamble? You bet. But I think it will work out.

Sorry for the thread-jack, but this is somewhat relavant.

So I drive the 50 miles one way during my extended lunch hour to go look at this cab I've been talking to a seller about.

Seller: "it's in OK condition - there's a corner missing"

Seller: "it works great!"

My observations:


  • Water damage. A LOT of it. So much that one of the corners of the cab just fell away some time back.
  • coin mechs gone
  • back door nearly destroyed
  • Sides repainted, then covered with thin black laminate (peeling badly)
  • Side art missing on one side
  • No marquee (this I already knew -- I have one)
  • Monitor badly burned (matsushita to boot) and already flipped over once.
I could go on. I ended up walking away without even offering anything lower. I just couldn't justify taking on this machine, even if it did work. I'll have to wait for another dedicated unit to show up. This is the first one I've seen in a year within a 100 mile radius of me. Bummer. :(

Moral of the story: Your assessment of the machine will probably NOT be their assessment of the machine.
 
Yeah at least if you're get a really good deal it's ok, and you should expect less when it's not from a known collector.

I hate putting my shoes on to head out the door with "I'll hold it for you" after saying I will leave NOW...only to check my email and be told "Sorry, I got an offer of $100 more, I just sold it".

This was the case about 2 minutes ago...glad I didn't leave already for the 3-1/2 hour round trip drive! :mad: If I had gotten there to find out it was already sold, someone would have been paying my gas or getting a foot up their ass.
 
Speaking of long drives - do you tell the prospective seller that you're that far away?

The one time I did, I got an "Oh, I'd hate to make you drive that far..." (also about a 3.5 hour drive), and then got no further responses to my emails...

The happy ending - a year later (almost to the date), the same seller, with the same machine (Centaur II) posted it, and I ended up getting it. His previous buyer apparently never showed up, and he got disgusted and just sat on it for another year...

This time he held it for me - perhaps it was the other potential buyer from California who wanted to meet him at the airport to pick up the game (pin was in Texas) - I was closer that time ;)
 
What a disappointing thing to find after driving so far!

I had a semi similar situation where the seller claimed a pin was in mint condition. A quote from the seller was "you won't find a better shape pinball like this one anywhere" Ha! Pictures were hard to see exactly if it was or wasn't in good shape. So I took a chance and found the pin to be a 7.5 out of 10 condition. Apparently mint condition allows for scratches and scuffs in the playfield, and cabinet damage and such.

Good luck with the rebuild. The cheap ones always cost the most it seems. And get rid of that plate glass!!

My first machine I paid way too much for. The seller didn't have keys to the cabinet and assured me "there's a reset button inside and the machine will boot right up"... needless to say, that wasn't true. Live and learn.
 
My first machine I paid way too much for. The seller didn't have keys to the cabinet and assured me "there's a reset button inside and the machine will boot right up"... needless to say, that wasn't true. Live and learn.

Get one of these: http://www.lockpickshop.com/KWICKPICK.html

It's been YEARS since I had to drill out a lock. Double sided locks are tough, but the single sided ones are easy once you learn how to use it properly...

I can get into an average single-sided lock in under 30 seconds with one of these typically.. I take this puppy along with me whenever I'm going to check out a game, just in case.
 
85% of the time they're much worse than advertised? If that number is even close to accurate you have the worst luck of any collector I've ever known. It's probably also a function of buying the cheapest junk possible. That can definitely lead to disappointment.

Maybe this varies depending upon the region? But in the South, I run into a lot of machines that are much worse off than the seller's claim, and of course, there's always the scenario where they find some dingbat on eBay asking ten times the value and use that as an indication of what they hope to get ("as soon as you fix this one little issue...")

Not all my deals have been bad. I picked up a TZ for $2500 that wouldn't boot, but that turned out to be some unseated cables. However, that was a deal that I negotiated much lower than what the seller was asking because he didn't have keys to the head and I couldn't see the inside of the backbox to check the system boards and the machine wouldn't boot... so I was still taking a chance, but that was a good deal.

Early on when I was picking up machines I didn't know what I do now. I overpaid for an import machine that was in much worse shape than originally thought; another machine looked ok, but smelled so much like cigarettes that even a year later I still haven't gotten the smell off it, another machine fell apart in transit... all kinds of things can happen.
 
Speaking of long drives - do you tell the prospective seller that you're that far away?

The one time I did, I got an "Oh, I'd hate to make you drive that far..." (also about a 3.5 hour drive), and then got no further responses to my emails...

The happy ending - a year later (almost to the date), the same seller, with the same machine (Centaur II) posted it, and I ended up getting it. His previous buyer apparently never showed up, and he got disgusted and just sat on it for another year...

This time he held it for me - perhaps it was the other potential buyer from California who wanted to meet him at the airport to pick up the game (pin was in Texas) - I was closer that time ;)

What condition is your Centaur II? I picked one up recently, and it was priced in that "price I can't refuse" area which made me pop.... but mine has horrid damage to the playfield and cabinet and is missing the backglass... but it's otherwise complete, so I think I'm going to re-theme it. I don't want to part it out, but I also don't want to fully-restore it because it's not worth spending the dough.
 
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