Thanks for clearing this up. Think its really cool that this function has gone unnoticed for all this time.
Third button on Yie Ar Kung-Fu?
- Thread starter abaraba
- Start date
Thanks for clearing this up. Think its really cool that this function has gone unnoticed for all this time.
mattosborn
Well-known member
To test, I just wired it up on my test bench. The Konami-to-JAMMA adaptor I made has the third button already hooked up (for Super Basketball), so I could just pop it in my JAMMA cab and play. If you want to try it out in your Yie Ar Kung-Fu cab, you could just run a jumper wire from pin N to pin E (1P Start) on the harness and have the Start button double as the third button. Probably not a good layout for playing, but at least you could try it out.
Here's the pinout:
Code:
Solder Side | Parts Side
_________________________|___________________________
NC | A | 1 | +12V
Speaker | B | 2 | Speaker
2P Button 2 (Punch) | C | 3 | 2P Button 1 (Kick)
2P Left | D | 4 | 2P Right
1P Start | E | 5 | 2P Start
1P Button 1 (Kick) | F | 6 | 2P Up
1P Button 2 (Punch) | H | 7 | Service
1P Right | J | 8 | 1P Left
1P Up | K | 9 | 2P Down
Coin 1 | L | 10| Coin 2
1P Down | M | 11| Coin Counter 1
1P Button 3 (Boost?)| N | 12| Coin Counter 2
Video Green | P | 13| Video Blue
Video Red | R | 14| Video Sync
NC | S | 15| 2P Button 3 (Boost?)
GND | T | 16| GND
GND | U | 17| GND
+5V | V | 18| +5V
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abaraba
Permanently Banned
Wooohooo! Thank you everyone, thank you mattosborn, much appreciated. I'm expecting my Yie Ar PCB will arrive in about two weeks, and it's good to know this requires no soldering around the PCB itself. Btw, QuarterArcade.com sold it for (only) $40, is there maybe some even better/cheaper place where you guys buy your boards?
I would grade this higher than "Not a big deal". It gives you 5 additional types of jump, where the two shorter jumps are especially useful. Default jump is more "flying" really, it makes you spend too much time airborne, hoping opponent would eventually move to where you going to land, but with additional jumps you can "aim" better your jumps, gives you more control, so it makes the game less random, more technical, definitively "more complete".... perhaps easier, not really, but I always do much better with than without it.
I would grade this higher than "Not a big deal". It gives you 5 additional types of jump, where the two shorter jumps are especially useful. Default jump is more "flying" really, it makes you spend too much time airborne, hoping opponent would eventually move to where you going to land, but with additional jumps you can "aim" better your jumps, gives you more control, so it makes the game less random, more technical, definitively "more complete".... perhaps easier, not really, but I always do much better with than without it.
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ModCity
Active member
It's a big deal for MAME and those who want that option implemented. Documents from Konami state the game is played with two buttons and a joystick on arcade conversions. I'd like to hear why this isn't important.
If MAME is really about preservation of these these games/boards, then allow it in MAME. If it's about gaming and the way the game should be played, then the "third button" argument is lame. Practice and play the game the way the rules apply.
sonnyburnett
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I think I played it with 3 buttons, I remeber as when facing,star, Pole, Chain and afcourse Blues where jumping is key you really need to time your jump and with the cab that had the jump button it made the game much more playable.
The one with the 3 buttons was in a snackbar/ small dinner.
All other cabinets I seen and played you needed to use the stick to jump and what was so Fcuked up was that when wanting to jump sideways didn't always go right with the stick.
With the button all you had to do was walk and press jump and pressing it short was a small jump and pressing long was a longer jump if my memmory is right on this.
Anyway, loved Yie ar Kung Fu, Most def in my Top ten!!
The one with the 3 buttons was in a snackbar/ small dinner.
All other cabinets I seen and played you needed to use the stick to jump and what was so Fcuked up was that when wanting to jump sideways didn't always go right with the stick.
With the button all you had to do was walk and press jump and pressing it short was a small jump and pressing long was a longer jump if my memmory is right on this.
Anyway, loved Yie ar Kung Fu, Most def in my Top ten!!
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MAME has always stated its primary mission was documenting and preserving the hardware. Whether that feature was mentioned in the manual or implemented in the actual game isn't really the issue, if the function exists in the hardware it should exist in the emulation.
If someone wants to use it or not is up to them, but a function that works on the actual hardware shouldn't have been removed.
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abaraba
Permanently Banned
One information does not need to exclude the other. Both is important. However, you can more appropriately preserve 'operators manual' by scanning it to PDF, and (re)print later if desired. Words and pictures, wiring schematics, none of that needs to be emulated, it does not really belong in _software program.
Emulators emulate electronic components, chips and integrated circuits, so that "software" (game ROMs in this case) can run on some other computer even when all the original hardware rust to dust, which is the motivation to preserve this and also the reason why preservation is done by *emulation* rather than with pictures, diagrams and descriptions.
Yes, that's what emulators do, but MAME can easily document it both by simply not initializing the 3rd button as "default" wiring/'mapping, BUT leave the pin still listed in the control panel with the rest, where you could virtually wire it, just like you could practically wire it if you had the real PCB. -- Once your emulator hardware can do anything actual hardware can, then you can say your emulator is done, it fully and properly documents the original hardware.
As if there is some danger of having too much information?
Can you think of it as "Easter Egg", a gift programmers left for curious operators to have fun, or whatever the reasons are they put those eggs in today's games, eh? -- What if this 3rd button technically qualifies as the first "Easter Egg" in gaming history, and you would have it forgotten in favor of some 'operator manual'? They do not document "Easter Eggs" in game manuals even these days, do they? You have to FIND it, which is what makes it even more cool, right?
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abaraba
Permanently Banned
Are you trying it with MAME or the PCB? It works (in older MAME at least) "exactly" like the punch and kick button, it is "jump modifier" - use it together with joystick directions.
You get something like this:
* 3rd button + UP = low jump up
* 3rd button + FORWARD = low jump, medium range
* 3rd button + DOWN+FORWARD = low jump, short range
...then there is something that looks like "block" stance, but you also have something similar without any buttons when you press BACK+UP, so let me ask this too: - is it possible to block hits in Yie Ar Kung-Fu? I know you can block 'stars', maybe 'chain' and 'fans' too, by kicking or punching them in the right moment, but to block punches and kicks I do not know is possible. That would be cool, maybe the 4th button is for blocks, reversals, grabs and throws?
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I have the pcb. Just wanted a quick description, or to get an idea of how this affects game play.
Definitely sounds like it will make the battle against Blues more effective.
As for the BACK+UP stance. I use that often when fighting against Club. In that stance, he will swing at you and miss most of the time. Then you just press punch and slam him in the face! It's not a blocking stance, but more like a dodge.
I think if blocks, reversals, grabs and throws were actually programmed into the game, they would have been used. But are you're saying there is a 4th button documented in the schematics?
Definitely sounds like it will make the battle against Blues more effective.
As for the BACK+UP stance. I use that often when fighting against Club. In that stance, he will swing at you and miss most of the time. Then you just press punch and slam him in the face! It's not a blocking stance, but more like a dodge.
I think if blocks, reversals, grabs and throws were actually programmed into the game, they would have been used. But are you're saying there is a 4th button documented in the schematics?
mattosborn
Well-known member
$40 is not a bad deal, considering you bought it from a respected retailer who provides some guarantee. They are fairly common though, and usually go pretty cheap.
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abaraba
Permanently Banned
Amazing. Now there are new tactics to try out. Is there some end to this, have we even scratched the surface of amazing mysteries implemented in this game?
Try 3rd button + DOWN, that must be some dodge too. There is actually not too many new jumps, after closer inspection, maybe half out of 8 possible directions gives what looks like standard jump - "high jump, long range", but together with these few new ones you can jump almost anywhere you want, and maybe more importantly not spend "5 seconds" fluffing through air as with default jump.
I was joking, that would be too much, eh? Does that Konami harness support any 4-button games at all?
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I've taken the time this morning to submit an update to MAME documenting this third button and adding functionality to the driver for it. By default, it is not mapped to any key. The upcoming MAME release (0.140u2) should contain this addition. The original change as was mentioned was in the 0.104u cycle and was an external submission (along with some other input fixes) to make MAME true to the manual and documentation.
Thanks for the information!
Scott
http://www.mametesters.org
Thanks for the information!
Scott
http://www.mametesters.org
ModCity
Active member
It's very cool the hardware is there, don't get me wrong. MAME developers should certainly consider that and reinstate that option in future versions, as far as I'm concerned. And reading this thread, it looks like that's a possibility.
Incidentally, I have this PCB in a cabinet right now but it's not convenient for me to test a third button off the board to test playability. I did check it out on my old version of MacMAME and that version did have the third button (defaulted to the space bar, by the way). Using it does change the game, though I think it's a matter of personal opinion on whether it improves the game or not.
That's where the intentions of the developers come into play. Is it an Easter Egg intended for savvy arcade machine owners to discover on their own in 1985? Maybe, but that's pretty speculative. It should also be considered that the designers tried to implement it originally but decided against it for a number of reasons - maybe they thought, rightly or wrongly, that it would be too complicated for players or that they never got the button to function they way they had in mind. Instead of fabricating all-new boards, they changed the manual to ignore the problem they couldn't solve and shipped the game that way. They designed the game 25 years ago, so I don't even know how practical getting answers from the source would be. Would love to hear what they have to say, though.
Again, it's a hell of a cool discovery no matter how you look at it. I came to play and love this game in many an arcade with two buttons and a joystick, per the manual (never saw one in the wild with three buttons, but another poster apparently has and I certainly can't rule it out). It's an interesting option to have and use if you're so inclined, but I won't be drilling another hole into my CP anytime soon
Technically yes. Moon War is 4 buttons. Its not 4 buttons plus a stick, though. It has a roller controller.
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abaraba
Permanently Banned
Well, that is the story I'd really like to know about. Since the feature made it all the way to the PCB it looks like the decision to throw it out was made in last minute, which makes the reason that much more curious. The thing is, once this feature gets back in MAME and people become aware of it again there will be much better chance someone might stumble and discover the true story behind it.
Can anyone think of the way to track down e-mails of Yie Ar Kung-Fu programmers? I'd write them an e-mail asking for an interview, or a simple statement about it, depending on how much story there is to this affair. I do not think e-mail to Konami would yield any response. Gamasutra would probably be able to track this story down, if they knew about it and if it is big enough to make an article about it. -- In any case, thanks to Tafoid our hope to eventually find out the story behind it will be less unreasonable.
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abaraba
Permanently Banned
More mystery... "Konami Arcade Classics" for Playstation 1. This is supposed to be faithful conversion of the arcade game, and it does seem so, but what is this supposed to mean:
--- " For special moves use directional buttons
and OX buttons simultaneously. " ---
(see attached screenshot)
Are they referring to standard kicks and punches as "special" moves where walking and jumping (no buttons pressed) are "normal" moves, or suggesting there are some other moves beside those they put pictures of on that 'instruction card'?
I have no idea what "simultaneously" refers to: "O+X" or "Direction+O" or "Direction+O+X" or "Hold Direction then O+X", or whatever else that odd sentence can mean.
Anyway, I tried all the combinations I could think of without producing any other moves than standard ones from the arcade version (two buttons only). Would it possible there are some special moves "earned" as you progress through the game, either in the original or just as some extra feature in this PSX port?
It is interesting how combination of buttons A+B can serve as separate input for button C. I like stuff like that, where simple elements combine to form complexity, like 3-buttons Virtua Fighter or DOA, in contrast to 6-button Street Fighter.
--- " For special moves use directional buttons
and OX buttons simultaneously. " ---
(see attached screenshot)
Are they referring to standard kicks and punches as "special" moves where walking and jumping (no buttons pressed) are "normal" moves, or suggesting there are some other moves beside those they put pictures of on that 'instruction card'?
I have no idea what "simultaneously" refers to: "O+X" or "Direction+O" or "Direction+O+X" or "Hold Direction then O+X", or whatever else that odd sentence can mean.
Anyway, I tried all the combinations I could think of without producing any other moves than standard ones from the arcade version (two buttons only). Would it possible there are some special moves "earned" as you progress through the game, either in the original or just as some extra feature in this PSX port?
It is interesting how combination of buttons A+B can serve as separate input for button C. I like stuff like that, where simple elements combine to form complexity, like 3-buttons Virtua Fighter or DOA, in contrast to 6-button Street Fighter.
