These games have survived over 40 yrs. Will they make 40 more?

when I got my first Robotron in i think 2001, I loved that it was almost 20 years old and never would have thunk it would be what I still consider my favorite game of all time twice as long later... Even though I just killed it temporarily to fix Joust for my brother, and have a mini, almost 25 years later I hope to be able to keep this cab alive for another 43 years at least...

anyway drunk rambling aside, i guess Pong is now 53 years old? I hope i'm still around and able to keep it going in 53 more years but that might be too much to ask... long story short it will be the interest more than the technology I think
 
I think a lot of vintage electronics will wind up going the FPGA route as original components become impossible to find. As always, CRTs will be the limiting factor.


This is like saying, "All audio amplifiers will end up going solid state, because vacuum tubes will be impossible to find."

It's simply not true. The point of this hobby and community is to preserve original stuff and keep it going. And there's ZERO reason why that can't be done.

There are plenty of examples of things from the past that are no longer made, that have been preserved for generations. And it starts with recognizing that preservation is possible, and not being afraid of it.
 
This is like saying, "All audio amplifiers will end up going solid state, because vacuum tubes will be impossible to find."

It's simply not true. The point of this hobby and community is to preserve original stuff and keep it going. And there's ZERO reason why that can't be done.

There are plenty of examples of things from the past that are no longer made, that have been preserved for generations. And it starts with recognizing that preservation is possible, and not being afraid of it.
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Andrewb when FPGA is mentioned:
 
I'm with AndrewB on this one, I don't think they will go away during any of our lifetimes. There will always be people dedicated to the cause of keeping machines alive. Even now there are so many great people in the hobby reverse engineering customs and putting in the work to make replacement parts to bring back even gutted machines. It's just a matter of "how many people will care in 40 years". TTL chips for the most part are still being made today after some 50 years and we have decades of crap and bootlegs to rob good chips from. They aren't going anywhere anytime soon. The only thing that MIGHT become a more serious problem are CRTs, but we will burn that bridge when we get there.

FPGAs are great and have their place, but I don't think that blindly replacing a board with an fpga setup is the move. I'd love to see more folk use it for making replacement custom ICs in support of the original hardware.

I've always said documentation and knowledge transfer is so important. The old gaurd won't be around forever and we will still need folk that know how to repair these machines.
 
I don't know, man, at least in my arcade, I've got a lot more games down than I've ever had before. Plus, even with tons of help available, I'm still not able to get them working correctly like I used to. I've had a sea wolf down for 5+ years, and Anti-aircraft down for the same amount of time, a Cheyenne that I can't get the gun to register on, Tetris that I can't get the monitor to work correctly with, a donkey Kong that I can't get the board set working quite right yet and a major havoc that may need extensive work to the monitor and the board set. I don't have all the necessary equipment or skills to repair these boards, and it's becoming more and more expensive to get them fixed and to have them shipped both ways. I think it started when I got my Star Trek fixed. Having the monitor and board set fixed plus shipping cost me in excess of $700. I just can't afford to stick that kind of money into every game, and since I don't have the skills or equipment to fix them, a lot of these games are just gonna end up dying and sitting here until I get rid of them. If I die before that happens, my wife MIGHT try to sell them, but most likely she'll throw them in a dumpster.
 
I'm with AndrewB on this one, I don't think they will go away during any of our lifetimes. There will always be people dedicated to the cause of keeping machines alive.

I think the big ones like Pacman, Robotron etc will always have more than a few examples around, it's the rare and obscure ones that I'm worried about. Fire One by Exidy would be a good example, it's a unique game with custom controls and it's rare as hell, it would be a shame if the cab and such were lost to time. Even games that completely suck deserve preservation and alot of those have really cool artwork and controls, Sub-Roc 3-D for example, although personally I don't find it that bad it wasn't very popular either.

FPGAs are great and have their place, but I don't think that blindly replacing a board with an fpga setup is the move. I'd love to see more folk use it for making replacement custom ICs in support of the original hardware.
I won't be surprised if a day comes where you can order any chip you want and have it made on demand in whatever DIP package you want without having to order thousands at insane costs, but again that can only happen if we know specifically how the originals worked.
 
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CRT's will survive, TV's from the 50's and 60's can work fine and the majority of arcade monitors will see way less use in private hands than they did while on route. The real issue is probably gonna be more games where the failure of custom chips will render the PCB's useless. No doubt some will survive, again because they'll get less use, but they'll die over time. Though we are getting close to the point where FPGA emulation has gotten just about all of the major arcade systems up until about the late 90's. So while not exactly original hardware, it's an acceptable alternative if working original boards become rare or extinct.
 
It's hard to say.

With limited use and preservation, stuff lasts. Many nuclear plants which started up in the 1960s are still in service, but they are changing out many control systems to new digital systems to improve reliability and cover obsolescence (can't get parts or support for the older systems.)

In my old GE Mark I Electrohydraulic Control System, we had a card that was probably 6" x 10" and it had an Op Amp on it from the Op Amp corporation of Connecticut. The Op Amp was around 4" x 4" (inches, not mm) black block on the board. We went to find a replacement - yep, nope. We did find someone with a spare card. The company was long gone. We replaced that system with the latest, greatest Mark VI System from GE, and drove on.

But I digress.

The old tech will work as long as it works. Some devices which make me uncertain are the POKEY chips which seem to fail for no good reason, and the Customs in Namco games which have legs rot off. At this point, the stuff still works, so I remain hopeful that it will continue to work.
 
This is like saying, "All audio amplifiers will end up going solid state, because vacuum tubes will be impossible to find."

It's simply not true. The point of this hobby and community is to preserve original stuff and keep it going. And there's ZERO reason why that can't be done.

There are plenty of examples of things from the past that are no longer made, that have been preserved for generations. And it starts with recognizing that preservation is possible, and not being afraid of it.


Bad comparison, big time.
Russian and Chinese 6L6s are a far cry from recreating a CRT. Lose an output transformer on a classic amp and you are stuck with a hammond or other repro. They don't perform the same or look the same. You are not preserving it at this point because it is not the same.

Your point of preservation only works until supplies of unobtainables run out or become too expensive. At what point does it stop being "original"? After you replace half the cab, controls, CPO, marquee, speakers, CRT and the PCB has half a dozen FPGA replacement chips on it.

Yes there are a ton of examples of things from the past being "preserved" that no longer function because parts can no longer be found or are 80% substitute parts.
Your blanket statement that "recognizing that preservation is possible" only works with substantial funding.

Nobody is afraid of it, just have a more realistic view.
 
My favorite example is the Roland TR-808 drum synth.

They used a faulty transistor for the sound. Good luck trying to replicate that.

 
It is difficult to make predictions that far into the future (so I won't). But I will provide some perspective specifically around CRTs.

Look around YouTube. There are several people who enjoy resurrecting and restoring old television sets from the 1950s onward. While not as large as the video arcade collecting community, they still find a way to 'make it work' between donor chassis/tubes, NOS tubes still a plenty on eBay and such. While I have no sentimental attachment to a first generation color television set from the 1950s, I can appreciate their fervor in brining them back to life in the same way I do a G80 game. 70 more years from now when a few more generations have cycled through, you may eventually see the hardware diminish or dry up as a function of part availability and general interest in the platform will slowly fade simultaneously. Nothing lasts forever.

On CRTs specifically though, many of those 1950s-era tubes have gone to air. Not because they were necked but because the seal between the gun assembly and the glass develops natural leaks over time. There isn't a thing you can do to prevent it as time marches on. What happened by the 1980s and 1990s? They had that problem solved and rocked out some CRTs that made the ones from a couple decades ago look primitive in both reliability and longevity. The downside to that is they indeed used toxic chemical like lead to make leaded safety glass, which is why tubes are so heavy but also why they have a beautiful, crystal clear transparency to them. There are probably other trace elements used in them that would be either illegal or prohibitively cost expensive from an environmental standpoint today even if someone had to cash to want to reproduce them. And sadly, as 'good' as technology is today, you will likely never find a more optimal (or equivalent) material substitute for making CRTs unless you invested tons of time and effort into R&D. Likely won't happen unless AI can save us there (skeptical IMO). The equipment, rigs, manufacturing processes, operators, engineers and everyone else who worked for Zenith, RCA, and several similar companies are either deceased or the assets have been sold overseas and possibly scrapped by now. Even though I would love to say 'it can happen', the barrier to re-entry on CRTs is very, very high. And even if you were able to make something that looked and felt the same, who knows how well they would last long term (e.g., would we 'revert' to 1950s era, short life tubes)?

Moral of the story: As long as we're all alive and breathing, preserve as much of the original hardware as possible. CRTs are delicate and easy to break. While they do take up a ton of room for storage, you can go through a couple dozen replacements quicker than you think. Have fun along the way. Let others enjoy the fruits of your labor. That is the best outcome you can expect.
 
Bad comparison, big time.
Russian and Chinese 6L6s are a far cry from recreating a CRT. Lose an output transformer on a classic amp and you are stuck with a hammond or other repro. They don't perform the same or look the same. You are not preserving it at this point because it is not the same.

Your point of preservation only works until supplies of unobtainables run out or become too expensive. At what point does it stop being "original"? After you replace half the cab, controls, CPO, marquee, speakers, CRT and the PCB has half a dozen FPGA replacement chips on it.

Yes there are a ton of examples of things from the past being "preserved" that no longer function because parts can no longer be found or are 80% substitute parts.
Your blanket statement that "recognizing that preservation is possible" only works with substantial funding.

Nobody is afraid of it, just have a more realistic view.

People act like CRT's are evaporating or disappearing. Or they're fragile things people need to worry about.

There's no reason the CRT in any game today can't last as long as the original Mullard tubes I have in my ST-70.

If you're only running your games a few hours a week, you aren't going to wear out a CRT in your lifetime.

Preservation means preserving things.
That's why we're supposed to be here.
Not to replace every part in our games with modern Chinese repro parts.
 
It is difficult to make predictions that far into the future (so I won't). But I will provide some perspective specifically around CRTs.

Look around YouTube. There are several people who enjoy resurrecting and restoring old television sets from the 1950s onward. While not as large as the video arcade collecting community, they still find a way to 'make it work' between donor chassis/tubes, NOS tubes still a plenty on eBay and such. While I have no sentimental attachment to a first generation color television set from the 1950s, I can appreciate their fervor in brining them back to life in the same way I do a G80 game. 70 more years from now when a few more generations have cycled through, you may eventually see the hardware diminish or dry up as a function of part availability and general interest in the platform will slowly fade simultaneously. Nothing lasts forever.

On CRTs specifically though, many of those 1950s-era tubes have gone to air. Not because they were necked but because the seal between the gun assembly and the glass develops natural leaks over time. There isn't a thing you can do to prevent it as time marches on. What happened by the 1980s and 1990s? They had that problem solved and rocked out some CRTs that made the ones from a couple decades ago look primitive in both reliability and longevity. The downside to that is they indeed used toxic chemical like lead to make leaded safety glass, which is why tubes are so heavy but also why they have a beautiful, crystal clear transparency to them. There are probably other trace elements used in them that would be either illegal or prohibitively cost expensive from an environmental standpoint today even if someone had to cash to want to reproduce them. And sadly, as 'good' as technology is today, you will likely never find a more optimal (or equivalent) material substitute for making CRTs unless you invested tons of time and effort into R&D. Likely won't happen unless AI can save us there (skeptical IMO). The equipment, rigs, manufacturing processes, operators, engineers and everyone else who worked for Zenith, RCA, and several similar companies are either deceased or the assets have been sold overseas and possibly scrapped by now. Even though I would love to say 'it can happen', the barrier to re-entry on CRTs is very, very high. And even if you were able to make something that looked and felt the same, who knows how well they would last long term (e.g., would we 'revert' to 1950s era, short life tubes)?

Moral of the story: As long as we're all alive and breathing, preserve as much of the original hardware as possible. CRTs are delicate and easy to break. While they do take up a ton of room for storage, you can go through a couple dozen replacements quicker than you think. Have fun along the way. Let others enjoy the fruits of your labor. That is the best outcome you can expect.
Well stated.
 
People act like CRT's are evaporating or disappearing. Or they're fragile things people need to worry about.

There's no reason the CRT in any game today can't last as long as the original Mullard tubes I have in my ST-70.

If you're only running your games a few hours a week, you aren't going to wear out a CRT in your lifetime.

Preservation means preserving things.
That's why we're supposed to be here.
Not to replace every part in our games with modern Chinese repro parts.
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I think it's weird to believe these games, or anything really, will last forever. They won't. Forty more years is an arbitrary number. Maybe your great grandkids, or their kids, will be the last ones to enjoy them?

It's great to keep them going as long as possible so as many people as possible can experience them for sure, but sooner or later, it's lights out.
 
Personally, it's the Bronze Age games that I'm concerned about. Their technology and availability is what makes me think this way.
 
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