TECH: Kickout on Gottlieb EM

Betelgeuse

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I am having some trouble with the 8-ball kickout hole on my 1973 Big Shot. There is a single leaf switch that detects the ball, which seems to be working (scores correctly). Normally, the ball is ejected by the kicker after a single score, but instead it just sits there and keeps scoring. The coil itself seems to be moving freely. Tracing the leads in this thing is a nightmare. Can anyone help point me in the right direction? What mechanism causes this coil to fire? Thanks!
 
Speaking in general, there should be an outhole relay. Sounds like that is actuating, along with your score motor if it's scoring multiple points. so, it's either a dirty / out of adjustment contact on the outhole relay (sometimes labeled as such) or possibly a dirty contact on a score motor stack. The easiest thing to check, although the least likely would be the outhole coil/solenoid.

If you open the playfield, put you finger in the outhole to actuate the switch, you should be able to see which relay is energizing.
 
Sometimes, these holes actually have two switches - one for scoring and one for coil actuation. Pop bumpers often have this.

Have you actually lifted up the playfield and physically inspected to make sure you're getting good contact on any switches that may be there?

Otherwise, as was mentioned before, there will be an 8-ball Outhole relay either on the bottom of the playfield, or in the belly. I'll bet one of the blades is dirty or misadjusted...
 
Thanks for the ideas! I had already tried these things, but wasn't sure I was barking up the right tree. It is just one switch for the kickout. There was a relay that activated in the bottom of the cabinet and also in the backbox, but these same 2 relays activated for ANY 500pt scoring. I couldn't find any misadjusted switches in either stack, I'll have to check again. There was no relay labelled exclusively for the kickout. I'll post with my next amateur observations/conclusions :)
 
Did you try cleaning the relay contacts? I know it's a no-no, but I use a small piece of fine emery cloth folded over, then blow out the contacts. Beyond that, you really need the schematic. Did you ohm out the coil?
 
Ok, was finally able to get some time to dig deeper on this... I was able to test the coil with a jumper wire and it kicks just fine. I ended up finding the outhole relay, which was actually mounted to the playfield itself near the back. All the switches seem to be opening and closing normally and a good cleaning did nothing. I even found which specific switch is wired to the coil, manually opening/closing it and even jumpering it does nothing. Now here's where my lack of experience will show... I take it that all EM's use A/C voltage for the coils because I couldn't get any multimeter readings with D/C. The switch that activates the coil of course has 2 leads, with the switch open I'm getting 0 on the lead going to the coil and only 8.5 on the other lead. There is continuity between the switch and the coil, and the switch is making contact. I think the 8.5v is just not enough to fire the coil, where should I be looking next?
 
So, you need to chase some wires, but if you're patient and have the schematic, you can narrow it down.

EMs are pure "state" machines. State is set when the ball is in play. Once the ball is drained, there should be a "click" in the cabinet, somewhere in the bottom, that trips the relay for game play ball state, cycle a cam roll, and kick out the next ball or end the game. It will depend on where the ball count state is sitting.

So, some questions - was this working, and then stopped, or has it never worked? If it worked and then stopped, what changed? What area were you working on?

I find it is critical in EMs to know their sequences. What do they want to do to get into a play state, and what do they do when that state ends?

With the playfield up, so you can see the cam, or rolling brain, put it in test mode and kick out several cycles - get to know the sound of the banter. Then, look on the schematic for the hold relay, or whatever sets the state for a ball in play (I have not looked at your machine's schematic, but they all work about the same here). Once a credit is put in, and the start button is pressed, the game sets the state for all the relays to be tripped by actions.

See if you can trip, by hand without getting shocked, the relay that is wired to the drained ball sensor. Be sure to kick in a point or two FIRST - I know my two Williams EMs grant the player a free reshot if a point isn't scored and the ball drains.

If tripping the relay signals a correct ball lost and Ball 2 is cycled, then you have a contact and or mechanical/wiring problem from the ball drain stack to the relay. You schematic should tell you which solder points on the relay stack get this input, and you can now trace back.

Take the ball drain stack out of the equation, and without power, ohm out the stack's wires to the relay - does that work? If yes, then you have a bad set of leaf switches under the drain? If not, then there's a wire break, or perhaps a mechanical failure from the playfield's jack to the bottom box's jack. I find, on EMs, these jacks to be very, very tricky, easily broken, and problematic. Disconnect the jack and then short (with the game on, credit in, and point scored) the points on the bottom box jack. If it works, then the issue is from the jack to the playfield.

In EMs, I use a process of elmination like this, from the state relay backwards. If the state relay can be tripped by hand to send a new state signal, and it works, then the issue must be either a fried state relay, or at some other electrical point back to the playfield, and one has to check each stop along the way.

This is what makes shooting EMs FUN! Heck, I leave the scope and multimeter on the bench, break out the aligator clip jumper wires, the schematics, and go to town isloating things untul it all sings! EMs do sing, you just have to get to know the pace and sounds of their song, and then you'll be able to spot a sick EM from 100 yards!

Good luck,

Scooter
 
I've been extremely busy and haven't had a chance to go back 'under the hood' on this, but I wanted to let you know I really appreciate the detailed response. I will definitely provide an update when I uncover new ground. Thanks!
 
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