System 6 sound need some guidance

ELutz said:
I'm going from memory......so someone please correct me if I'm wrong......When you hit the test button on Williams sound boards....generally you will get a "loop" of one sound (I believe in some games, you get nothing). So, I think RGP poster is wrong;).

Edward
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You're right. Pressing the test button will give you a weird jumbled mess of sound. The best way to test each sound input is manually grounding each input pin one at a time. If you have a power supply and a speaker you can do it on a bench. I've got instructions on how to do that in the link I posted above.

EDIT: There are test ROMs for both the MPU/Driver and sound board. At this point I would be pulling the boards and going through them. Then check continuity through the harness right from driver transistor leg on the driver board to input buffer pin on the sound board. Actually I would probably check the harness first. Once it gets to this stage it's time to just go through everything.

I would also replace sockets as necessary, install fresh game code and thoroughly test the RAM while the boards are out. Good time to replace the interconnect too.
 
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ELutz said:
I'm going from memory......so someone please correct me if I'm wrong......When you hit the test button on Williams sound boards....generally you will get a "loop" of one sound (I believe in some games, you get nothing). So, I think RGP poster is wrong;).

Edward
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I've been trying to get confirmation on Edward- I've now seen 2 different people say that the test button cycled through multiple sounds. One of these people was SaminVA who just posted that above, regarding his Firepower machine. That machine shares alot of similarity with Time Warp (with the exception of speech).
 
Lindsey said:
The best way to test each sound input is manually grounding each input pin one at a time. If you have a power supply and a speaker you can do it in a bench. I've got instructions on how to do that in the link I posted above.
Click to expand...

OK progress made here, sorry for the confusion. On one of the sites that I read it said to do the grounding of the pins using your DMM. When I did that I had no sounds generated when I touched the pins on the connector. I just went down and used one of those alligator clip things, and I get sounds generated at pins 2,3,4,5, and 7 as the original instructions stated.

Yay! Tell me what's next! (in the meantime I'll look at your site again Lindsey)
 
vintagegamer said:
Yay! Tell me what's next! (in the meantime I'll look at your site again Lindsey)
Click to expand...

I made some edits above. That's what I would do next. I've seen bad ROMs do all kinds of weird stuff so I wouldn't be surprised to see that be the problem but I would still test the MPU/driver out of the machine, replace sockets where necessary and install new game code.
 
Lindsey said:
I made some edits above. That's what I would do next.
Click to expand...

OK I'll read and give it a go- also I didn't mention that the sounds I heard were chime-like. Is that how they should be? I did not flip the switch setting and try again, but I can if needed.

EDIT: There are test ROMs for both the MPU/Driver and sound board. At this point I would be pulling the boards and going through them. Then check continuity through the harness right from driver transistor leg on the driver board to input buffer pin on the sound board. Actually I would probably check the harness first. Once it gets to this stage it's time to just go through everything.
Click to expand...

On this stuff, everything starts to sound to me like when you see cartoons of a master talking to its dog and all the dog is hearing is BLAH BLAH DOG BLAH BLAH DOG BLAH. I try to make sense of it but I really need a "this is what you do next", in layman's terms. Sorry, I've learned so much in my time here but some things still don't quite make it through the force field in my skull yet. :)

EDIT: for the record I just went back and flipped the switch over to synth sounds and did the ground test again, and I'm definitely getting more synth sounds, including an explosion which just sounded totally badass. God I hope I'm close to getting this resolved.
 
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vintagegamer said:
That's exactly what I've been trying to get confirmation on Edward- I've now seen 2 different people say that the test button cycled through multiple sounds. One of these people was SaminVA who just posted that above, regarding his Firepower machine. That machine shares alot of similarity with Time Warp (with the exception of speech).
Click to expand...

I'm betting Sam was talking about the "sound test" via the coin door test button. When threads start to get long, things can get kinda confusing;).

Edward
 
After reading the marvin3m info yet again, I see that even though the game 'could' sound like all sound solenoids are firing during the solenoid test, it's possible that you could be hearing the same solenoid sound again for a separate solenoid unless you do the manual one-by-one solenoid check. I will be trying that in a little bit and will report back.

Sigh.

EDIT: I now also understand the items that could be suspect on the driver board so I will be checking and-or replacing those (PIA at IC5, 7408's at IC3 and IC4, and checking the corresponding transistors etc for solenoids 9-13.
 
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You can test the 7408's chips with DMM.It's easy.So first chech the transistors,after that the 7408 chips and if everithing is ok,check or replace directrly the PIA

If you don't know how to check the 7408,this is the method:

1.Red probe on pin 7
2.With black proble touch every pin of the chip.You must get .4-.6.If you have more than that or low the chip is bad.Only pin 14 can get around .3.My attempt show that until now if I have bad chip it's with value .3-.1.Untill now I'm not meet bad chip with valure more tha .6


I have fully working MPU and Sound boards,If I can help with some measure without power up because the pinball is recycled already
 
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ELutz said:
I'm betting Sam was talking about the "sound test" via the coin door test button. When threads start to get long, things can get kinda confusing;).

Edward
Click to expand...

Nope I am talking about the test button on the top left side of the sound board. When you push it it starts a loop that repeats all the sounds and speech in the game and it doesn't stop until you cut the game off. I was gonna make a video to show this but I found someone else's on youtube that show's what I was talking about. This is how Firepower works but that doesn't mean every game is the same. The sound board has it's own processor and ROMS so each game could be different.

 
SaminVA said:
Nope I am talking about the test button on the top left side of the sound board. When you push it it starts a loop that repeats all the sounds and speech in the game and it doesn't stop until you cut the game off. I was gonna make a video to show this but I found someone else's on youtube that show's what I was talking about. This is how Firepower works but that doesn't mean every game is the same. The sound board has it's own processor and ROMS so each game could be different.
Click to expand...

I'll be damned! I've never seen/heard another Williams pinball of that era do that (not that I've checked that many). The two or three I've ever checked.....just loop one sound over and over and over. I'm gonna have to start checking them to see how different titles react.

Vintagegamer, I've never checked your title....so, now I'm not sure how it should react.

Edward
 
ELutz said:
As a matter of fact.....I despise banana flippers!;)

Edward
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What's funny is I powered up my Sorcerer for the first time since Time Warp came home, and when my daughter was playing it she said "DAD WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FLIPPERS! THEY SHRUNK!"

It really does change things up when you go to the banana flippers and then go back!
 
My latest updates on this:

1. the marvin3m details state that during the solenoid test, the 5 sound solenoids should all have different sounds associated with them. On the auto test, 12 and 13 on mine sound the same.

2. I went to the 'manual' test, doing each one individually- during the manual test, these 2 solenoids continue to make the exact same sound

3. solenoid 12 pertains to the transistor at Q37, and solenoid 13 pertains to transistor Q39. I checked both of them with my DMM switched to diode, and the results were as follows: Q37 showed 557 at 'e' (left leg) and 754 at 'c' (right leg); Q39 showed 557 at 'e' (left leg) and 763 at 'c' (right leg). I checked the transistors at Q41 and Q35 just to see if the values were similar or way different, and they are similar (Q35=600 and 747, Q41=479 and 802).

The marvin3m site doesn't say what a 'bad' reading would show, but going off of looking at the 4 transistors in a row, it sounds like they are working correctly and doing what they should.

Can anyone confirm this for me and tell me next steps? Do I move to replacing the 7408's next? I have them in-hand and just need to know if they sound suspect or not.

Thanks!
 
If the rest of the solenoids in the game are ok then you don't have to worry about those. I would focus on the sound board itself. Do the legs of the sound roms have any black tint to them? Are the sockets on the sound board made by Scanbe? The toggle switch for chimes/synth sounds can fail as well. Perhaps yours is partially open allowing a weird hybrid of chimes and synth?

Lots of things to check but I don't think its on the driver board at this point...
 
craigmack said:
If the rest of the solenoids in the game are ok then you don't have to worry about those. I would focus on the sound board itself. Do the legs of the sound roms have any black tint to them? Are the sockets on the sound board made by Scanbe? The toggle switch for chimes/synth sounds can fail as well. Perhaps yours is partially open allowing a weird hybrid of chimes and synth?

Lots of things to check but I don't think its on the driver board at this point...
Click to expand...

Thanks Craig. I haven't looked at the socket yet on the sound board but I'm fairly certain it's the original one. I bought new sockets yesterday to do the replacement so I will give that a go and then try the toggle switch next. Hopefully I can get a universal one to do the trick.

What continues to be perplexing is that 2 separate sound boards are doing the exact same thing in the game- so, if it's the sound board, that would have to mean that both sound boards have an issue of some sort.
 
craigmack said:
Do the 2 different sound boards have their own sets of ROMS as well or are you moving the ROMS from board to board?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, there is only 1 sound ROM, which is on the sound board. The sounds are generated using a combination of the 5 sounds.

"On System 6, using only 5 solenoids for sound limits the number sound and speech calls. Makes 2(to 5th power) = 32 so only 31 usable combinations"

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#System_4-6_Sound_Selects
 
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