Switched solenoid problem (Sys. 11)

vipe155

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I'm having a problem with a couple of switched solenoids on a System 11 game. This is out of my realm of expertise, and trying over at rec.games.pinball didn't get me very far.

The issue is a stuck on flasher when I first power on the game. Then, when entering diagnostic mode, the solenoid across from it in the chart (see picture, circled in red) locks on and the flasher turns off.

All I know from looking at the schematic is that there is a "A" side of solenoids and a "C" side. The game will blow the F2A side fuse after about 30 seconds or so on the Aux power board if that helps any. Any ideas?

Edit: Also, I did try a friends Rottendog MPU in this, and it did not have these problems when that MPU was in. This is an issue with the original MPU.

002-1.jpg
 
Q31 is a good place to start. Probally shorted. You can check it with an ohm meter. Compare it to the others around it.The IC driving it is the next suspect.
 
You need to trace that flasher back to the aux power board and then the system 11 board. I agree that the Q31 (likely a TIP36?) is shorted to ground on the aux power board. However it's possible the upstream TIP102 or 2N4401 pre-drivers are also bad. For this you'll need to find pin 5J1-4 on that board and find it's pair connector that goes to the system 11 board (this would also be in the schematics).

Let us know if you don't know how to test a transistor with a multimeter.

Evan
 
Q31 seems to be on the MPU, and it tests ok.

I haven't found connector 5J1-4 yet. I'm trying to trace back in the schematic to find everything involved with this.

Also, the blanking LED is not lit on this game. The other two LEDs for 5V and Diagnostic are, but not blanking.
 
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Since your first post says that the problem went away with a new mpu, that is where to concentrate your trouble-shooting. Remove connector 1J11 from the mpu and with the power on check pin 1J11- 6 (Q31 output) . If pin 6 is stuck at ground the Q31 circuit is activated. Q31 is turned on by Q27 which is turn on by pin 3 of U19. Pin 7 is the output of Q23, Q19, and pin 11 of U19. The 5J** connector I believe is the interconnct board and not an issue if the game worked correctly with the Rottendog mpu. What game is this??
 
Since your first post says that the problem went away with a new mpu, that is where to concentrate your trouble-shooting. Remove connector 1J11 from the mpu and with the power on check pin 1J11- 6 (Q31 output) . If pin 6 is stuck at ground the Q31 circuit is activated. Q31 is turned on by Q27 which is turn on by pin 3 of U19. Pin 7 is the output of Q23, Q19, and pin 11 of U19. The 5J** connector I believe is the interconnct board and not an issue if the game worked correctly with the Rottendog mpu. What game is this??

I removed that connector (J11), and there is voltage present at pin 6. So if Q31 tests good that it's probably something down the line?

And this is just a Bally Game Show....
 
Does pin 7 read the same? Where are you placing the meter leads, black and red?
You are looking for a ground so the red lead should be on +5 and the black lead to the pins 6, and then 7. A solid ground at those pins should read +5 and would indicate that the circuit is activated and stuck on.

Game Show is the schematic set I'm using.
 
Does pin 7 read the same? Where are you placing the meter leads, black and red?
You are looking for a ground so the red lead should be on +5 and the black lead to the pins 6, and then 7. A solid ground at those pins should read +5 and would indicate that the circuit is activated and stuck on.

Game Show is the schematic set I'm using.

Where should I be going to for the red lead (5V)?

EDIT: Ok, I figured out where I could go to check the 5 volts, and I'm getting 5V on pin 6 of that connector, but nothing on pin 7. This is with the black lead on the pin in question, and the red lead on a 5V output on the power supply. So, long story short, I guess I am getting a ground at that pin.
 
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Yes you are correct. You have a ground on pin 6 and not at pin 7. Let's trty to figure out why. On page 1-38 of your schematic, upper right corner, there is a picture of what you need to check. Also on page 3-8 is the actual schematic. One of those transistors is probally stuck "on" or U19 is stuck "on" or worse yet U28 chip is bad. Measure the voltages in the circuit to determine which is bad. Ground the black lead. Compare the voltages of Q31 and Q27 against the legs of Q23 and Q19. More than likely it is Q31 and/or Q27. Can you remove and replace the transistors? Be careful in there with your test leads.
 
Yes you are correct. You have a ground on pin 6 and not at pin 7. Let's trty to figure out why. On page 1-38 of your schematic, upper right corner, there is a picture of what you need to check. Also on page 3-8 is the actual schematic. One of those transistors is probally stuck "on" or U19 is stuck "on" or worse yet U28 chip is bad. Measure the voltages in the circuit to determine which is bad. Ground the black lead. Compare the voltages of Q31 and Q27 against the legs of Q23 and Q19. More than likely it is Q31 and/or Q27. Can you remove and replace the transistors? Be careful in there with your test leads.

I checked out Q31 and Q27, and they test fine. What's the correct way to check out U19/U28?
 
No, I just have a typical multimeter. I haven't dealt too much with IC chips, but I should be able to take care of it. I guess I just need to look up what pins would be involved.

Is it typical for a game to play just fine, sit for a couple of months, and then have this problem? It's odd that this just happened out of nowhere.
 
When electronic components say it's time to go bad they god bad.

............ If pin 6 is stuck at ground the Q31 circuit is activated. Q31 is turned on by Q27 which is turn on by pin 3 of U19. Pin 7 is the output of Q23, Q19, and pin 11 of U19. .......

These are the pins to probe. U19 pin 1, blanking input, and pin 2 the coil selecting input. when goth of these are high (+5) at the same time pin 3 goes high and turns on Q27 , then Q31 .......
If pins 1 and 3 are pulseing or low( basically at ground ) and pin 3 is stuck high, Q27 could be totally shorted or U19 is toast.
 
When electronic components say it's time to go bad they god bad.



These are the pins to probe. U19 pin 1, blanking input, and pin 2 the coil selecting input. when goth of these are high (+5) at the same time pin 3 goes high and turns on Q27 , then Q31 .......
If pins 1 and 3 are pulseing or low( basically at ground ) and pin 3 is stuck high, Q27 could be totally shorted or U19 is toast.

Ok, I'm trying to follow you here. I need to check U19, and I'm assuming that the pin marked with the dot is Pin 1. Is the pin directly across from that Pin 2, or is Pin 2 next to 1?

Also, should it be black lead on 1, and red on pin 3? What value should I be looking for?
 
2 is next to 1. From the dot it counts counter clockwise. Black on ground, Red on pin3. If you read +5, check pin 2. What does it read?
 
2.2v seems a little high.
Using the voltmeter, and the schematic page 3-8, compare the voltages of the 2 identical circuits starting at pins 1,2 OF u19 all the way to connector 1J11-6, to pins 12, 13 of U19 to connector 1J11-7. Check at each component along the way. See any differences?
 
2.2v seems a little high.
Using the voltmeter, and the schematic page 3-8, compare the voltages of the 2 identical circuits starting at pins 1,2 OF u19 all the way to connector 1J11-6, to pins 12, 13 of U19 to connector 1J11-7. Check at each component along the way. See any differences?

Ok, so on U19 Pin 1 = 3V, 2 = 2.2V, 3 = 3.3V. Pin 10 = .18V, 11 = .17V, and 13 = 3V.

Then Q27 and Q31 have more voltage present than Q19 and 23 in the other circuit.
 
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