Switch: A NO pulse to NC wiring?

modessitt

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I'm having a shitty time right now with a Skeeball - supposedly Model H, but the plate on the computer says "Mod No: L110" - so who knows.

Anyway - I'm trying to connect a Mars Series 2000 AE2411 DBV to it, as I've often done to Model S machines. The 2411 has two wires that connect to it - Credit Relay (Common) and Credit Relay (Normally Open) - for the credit pulse. I'd normally just connect these to the coin switch wiring and be done.

However - it's not being that easy. The two wires I've found for the credit switch appear to be Normally Closed and register when they go open. I touch the two wires together and nothing. Separate them and it triggers a game start.

Of course, when I try to connect the coin switch wires to the DBV, no game starts when I put in a dollar. I tested the dbv on a pinball so I know it works when connected to a normally open circuit that triggers when closed, but how the hell am I going to get it to work when connected to a normally closed circuit that triggers when opened?

I'm pretty frazzled right now. Been out all day in 100+ degree heat...
 
I'm having a shitty time right now with a Skeeball - supposedly Model H, but the plate on the computer says "Mod No: L110" - so who knows.

Anyway - I'm trying to connect a Mars Series 2000 AE2411 DBV to it, as I've often done to Model S machines. The 2411 has two wires that connect to it - Credit Relay (Common) and Credit Relay (Normally Open) - for the credit pulse. I'd normally just connect these to the coin switch wiring and be done.

However - it's not being that easy. The two wires I've found for the credit switch appear to be Normally Closed and register when they go open. I touch the two wires together and nothing. Separate them and it triggers a game start.

Of course, when I try to connect the coin switch wires to the DBV, no game starts when I put in a dollar. I tested the dbv on a pinball so I know it works when connected to a normally open circuit that triggers when closed, but how the hell am I going to get it to work when connected to a normally closed circuit that triggers when opened?

I'm pretty frazzled right now. Been out all day in 100+ degree heat...

Depending on the current of the circuit you might just use a transistor (switching) or a relay. Set the transistor base to be grounded (for npn) and send the credit signal to the base. That should turn off the transistor and give you a credit.

If you use a relay you can set the relay so it is being held closed and just have the coil interupted when there is a credit. Maybe use the ground side of the relay coil and when a credit is given the ground goes high and credit is given. There are other better ways to do this but this is some of the quick and dirty ways to get you going.

When it gets that hot grab a slurpee and put it in a double gulp cup.

EDIT:

If the relay is a spdt it shoud be easy, if not just get a Single pole Double throw and wire up the nc connecitons and have the coil work the relay. That is the better solution to the problem.

http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp

one more

http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/SPDT-relay-wiring-diagram

WHEN IT GETS THAT HOT MOD TAKE A BREAK. We want you around!
 
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Depending on the current of the circuit you might just use a transistor (switching) or a relay. Set the transistor base to be grounded (for npn) and send the credit signal to the base. That should turn off the transistor and give you a credit.

If you use a relay you can set the relay so it is being held closed and just have the coil interupted when there is a credit. Maybe use the ground side of the relay coil and when a credit is given the ground goes high and credit is given. There are other better ways to do this but this is some of the quick and dirty ways to get you going.

When it gets that hot grab a slurpee and put it in a double gulp cup.

EDIT:

If the relay is a spdt it shoud be easy, if not just get a Single pole Double throw and wire up the nc connecitons and have the coil work the relay. That is the better solution to the problem.

How can I set the base of the npn to ground and the credit line to the base? They'd be on the same pin. And were'd the output be?
 
How can I set the base of the npn to ground and the credit line to the base? They'd be on the same pin. And were'd the output be?

I didn't realize that it is a relay and edited the post with some spdt relay diagrams. The problem is how to energize the relay and have the nc connection open. Seems to me there is an extra wire.

The transistor idea was for some small current apps.

I think if you hook up the common to just about any ground and the coil to the dolar bill validator that should work the relay then you just have the nc connection that will give the credit.

This is the diagram that I used as a ref.

http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/SPDT-relay-wiring-diagram

it SHOULD be as easy as moving the no wire to the nc.
 
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Playing with a relay here, you may have to put another ground to one side of the coil so the credit signal from the dollar bill valid will trip the relay.
 
Something doesn't sound right about your coin switch . Maybe someone has the wires crossed?
I found a post on ArcadeControls.com that wanted to add the same Mars Series 2000 DBV and they said
"A Mars 2000 dbv is easy enough to install. It's just four wires. Two for AC and two for the coin switch. You just hook it up to AC and the other two wires to the common and N. O. of the coin switch. It will take longer to figure out how to mount it than it would to wire it. If you don't need the ticket dispenser then that might be a good place to mount it. That way you would have the bill acceptor and the coin mech. The only time both would be OOO (out of order) would be if a coin was jamming the switch."
I found the schematic for the Skee Ball Model H and it looks like the coin switch should be connected to the Common and N.O. contacts. The wiring diagram shows 3 wires going to the 2 coin switches. The red appears to be common ground and white to coin switch #1 N. O. and the black wire to coin switch #2 N. O.
I found the schematic at ArcadeControls.com
Hope this helps.
Sam
I linked the picture but it was too big so it's best to just view from the link.
http://unclet.arcadecontrols.com/SkeeBall/deltronics-pics1/deltronics-page07.jpg
 
Cheap 12v relay would work. The only issue you may have is the mars pulse speed may be too fast for the relay to keep up. The Mars VN series and ICT DBA'a have the option for long or short pulse speeds.

EDIT: Forgot that the VN series only pulses one per dollar so that wont work. The ICT will but keep in mind they suck.
 
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I think the problem is that the dbv is pulsing too fast for the Model H (or L) CPU to recognize. It's wired up exactly the same as with a Model S (which works), but it's not registering. Set it to long pulse and it still doesn't register.

We're calling Skeeball on Monday to see if there is a different ROM version that might make it work...
 
I think the problem is that the dbv is pulsing too fast for the Model H (or L) CPU to recognize. It's wired up exactly the same as with a Model S (which works), but it's not registering. Set it to long pulse and it still doesn't register.

We're calling Skeeball on Monday to see if there is a different ROM version that might make it work...

you can lengthen the pulse a bit with a cap on the pulse line. It may or may not work but I would give it a shot.
 
Get another bill acceptor and be done with it :)

other than that you might try to amplify the credit signal with a transistor or op amp and lengthen that signal.

Either that or try to hold the relay closed a bit longer. The cap idea should have worked but you may need to use a resistor also. I can't find my bread board but I would try a pot and variable cap and adjust until I got it working.

Do you have the specs for the bill acceptor? I looked and could not find anything other than sites that want to sell me one.

As I understand this problem: The credit signal is needed to go to a nc circuit, go open when credit is issued, and the pulse is too short for the game to see that a credit is incoming.

Hooking up the wires together does nothing but when separated gives the credit.

You might try a 555 timer to set it for different times to see just what kind of pulse that thing is looking for, without specs it is hard to know just what answer this @#$%ing thing is looking for.
 
Get another bill acceptor and be done with it :)

other than that you might try to amplify the credit signal with a transistor or op amp and lengthen that signal.

Either that or try to hold the relay closed a bit longer. The cap idea should have worked but you may need to use a resistor also. I can't find my bread board but I would try a pot and variable cap and adjust until I got it working.

Do you have the specs for the bill acceptor? I looked and could not find anything other than sites that want to sell me one.

As I understand this problem: The credit signal is needed to go to a nc circuit, go open when credit is issued, and the pulse is too short for the game to see that a credit is incoming.

Hooking up the wires together does nothing but when separated gives the credit.

You might try a 555 timer to set it for different times to see just what kind of pulse that thing is looking for, without specs it is hard to know just what answer this @#$%ing thing is looking for.
 
Here's my first pass solution at fixing this with a 555Timer.

Schematic handwritten PDF

Licensed under TAPR/NCL; no more than 10units can be build in a calendar year.

Implements the MonoStable Circuit w/ a relay circuit.

For 500ms;
t=500mS=R1*C1
based upon the graph at the bottom we pick C1 to be 10uF; and calculate R1.
t/C1 = R1*C1/C1 pr t/C1 = R1
So; R1 = 0.5 / 10 e-6 or 50k ~= 47k.

So; to get about 500ms; use R1=47k and C1=10uf. Vcc in your case would be the 12V ticket dispenser.

Then; you need to implement the relay circuit connected to pin3.

Any diode 1N914 would work for D1/D2. Radioshack likely still sells the little switching diodes.
I know frys has them... the NTE cross for them is NTE519
Frys also has the 555 timers. NTE cross: NTE955M

Frys probably has a suitable 5/6V relay... but you could get the Radioshack relay pictured in the schematic; which ofcourse isn't available anymore...
275-240 looks close but given it's a 5v relay driving by around 10V... you have a burnout problem. so you'll want to limit the current thru the relay:

Coil rating of 5VDC
90 mA
IIRC; the output stage of the 555 is a pushpull transistor config; which means it output drops by about 2V from powersupply. So we'll assume 10VDC out during a "high". This means we need to drop 5V across a resistor who will also be taking 90mA. The diode D1 also takes about 0.7V; so 4.3V is left.
Rrelay = Vdrop / I coil = 4.3V / 90mA = 47.78ohms ~= 47ohms
Power of Resistor = P=I*E or P=4.3V*90mA = 0.387W; so you'll need a half watt (0.5) resistor.
 
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