Stern Meteor upper flipper very weak

2PacMan

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Continued from this thread:

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=940492#post940492

I had a chance to work on the flipper last night. So far I have taken the flipper apart, cleaned it and put a little lithium grease on the moving parts. It moves very smoothly, but no change. Next, I put on a brand new coil, no change. Basically, it seems like the flipper just barely gets power to it. Barely enough to flip it up, but when the ball hits it, or when I hold my finger in front of it, the flipper hardly moves. When I hold my finger in front of the bottom flippers, I can't hold them down they are so powerful, not the case with this upper flipper.

What is the EOS switch supposed to do? I believe it should be adjusted so it opens at the very end of the flipper stroke to cut off the high power, correct? Just for fun, I adjusted it so far that the flipper doesn't even hit it and i've also adjusted it so the switch opens the minute the flipper is engaged, and there is no difference in the behavior of the flipper. It's like the switch isn't even there. I cleaned the contacts of the switch and there was no change. I'm starting to think there's some kind of power issue going on now. Here are some pics, if anyone has any ideas, i'd really appreciate it.
 

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First.....lock that tube of grease up.....and never use it on a pinball again. If something feels like it needs lubrication....something is lose or worn out and needs to be replaced. That grease you lubed the flipper assembly with is only going to lead to more trouble. You might want to disassemble that flipper assemble and clean it out now....because it's only going to get more difficult with time.

OK, rant over....

You are correct on the EOS switch....it is closed when the flipper is at rest...and opens when the flipper is fully extended. You can have a weak flipper if the switch contacts arn't clean. These are high power contacts, so you need to file them smooth and clean. Another thing that can cause weak flippers is the plunger itself (that's the "rod" that moves inside the coil). It's tip can mushroom...and thus drag on the inside of the coil sleeve as it's moving. This can also be filed off. And lastly...(I think) the upper flipper gets it's power from a switch "stacked" onto the lower flipper's EOS switch. This will also be a high power contact switch, and needs to be filed clean.

Edward
 
First.....lock that tube of grease up.....and never use it on a pinball again. If something feels like it needs lubrication....something is lose or worn out and needs to be replaced. That grease you lubed the flipper assembly with is only going to lead to more trouble. You might want to disassemble that flipper assemble and clean it out now....because it's only going to get more difficult with time.

OK, rant over....

You are correct on the EOS switch....it is closed when the flipper is at rest...and opens when the flipper is fully extended. You can have a weak flipper if the switch contacts arn't clean. These are high power contacts, so you need to file them smooth and clean. Another thing that can cause weak flippers is the plunger itself (that's the "rod" that moves inside the coil). It's tip can mushroom...and thus drag on the inside of the coil sleeve as it's moving. This can also be filed off. And lastly...(I think) the upper flipper gets it's power from a switch "stacked" onto the lower flipper's EOS switch. This will also be a high power contact switch, and needs to be filed clean.

Edward

Thanks ELutz....I have put the grease away..i put a very light coating on, which i knew was a no-no, but i was getting desperate :)

The flipper rod seems ok, no mushrooming. It's not dragging or catching in the solenoid tube, it has a very fluid motion. It's hard to tell in the pics, but the EOS switch looks like it does have some oxidation on the sides of the contacts. I took some sandpaper last night and cleaned them pretty good. The one thing I haven't checked is the lower flipper's EOS stack. I will have to check that and make sure it is well cleaned. I hope that will do the trick.

I'm just confused as to why the EOS switch on the upper flipper doesn't seem to be doing anything. But if the flipper is only getting the low power from the lower flipper's EOS switch, and not the high power, it would make sense since the upper flipper's EOS switch is supposed to cut off the high power, correct?
 
I would check the contacts on the lower flipper but my gut feeling is that it's wired wrong. You might have it wired so it's powering the weaker winding when the strong winding should be powered. .

Keep in mind that there's a resistor in series with that coil to weaken it so it doesn't break the targets. If that resistor went way out of spec it could cause the same problem.
 
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Thanks ELutz....I have put the grease away..i put a very light coating on, which i knew was a no-no, but i was getting desperate :)

The flipper rod seems ok, no mushrooming. It's not dragging or catching in the solenoid tube, it has a very fluid motion. It's hard to tell in the pics, but the EOS switch looks like it does have some oxidation on the sides of the contacts. I took some sandpaper last night and cleaned them pretty good. The one thing I haven't checked is the lower flipper's EOS stack. I will have to check that and make sure it is well cleaned. I hope that will do the trick.

I'm just confused as to why the EOS switch on the upper flipper doesn't seem to be doing anything. But if the flipper is only getting the low power from the lower flipper's EOS switch, and not the high power, it would make sense since the upper flipper's EOS switch is supposed to cut off the high power, correct?

The high power contacts are made of tungstein......a very strong metal alloy. They will just laugh at sandpaper, you need a small file to clean them properly. The sides of the contacts arn't important, it's the face/sruface area where the two contacts meet....that's what must be clean, smooth, and pit free.

And clean that damn grease out! :)
Edward
 
The high power contacts are made of tungstein......a very strong metal alloy. They will just laugh at sandpaper, you need a small file to clean them properly. The sides of the contacts arn't important, it's the face/sruface area where the two contacts meet....that's what must be clean, smooth, and pit free.

And clean that damn grease out! :)
Edward

Amen, brother! Grease has no place in pinball restoration.

I agree about the contacts. You're right about the upper flipper ground coming from a switch on the lower flipper EOS, though I have seen a meteor where both flippers were connected in parallel from the cabinet switch. Dirty contacts could definitely cause a weak flipper. The only thing that's troubling is the fact that the EOS switch seems to have no effect.

Anyway... clean the hell out of the contacts first :)
 
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Man, If I had a $1 for every coil assembly or shooter rod assembly I had to clean grease/oil/WD-40 out of....I'd be able to buy a new truck :)

Edward
 
I would check the contacts on the lower flipper but my gut feeling is that it's wired wrong. You might have it wired so it's powering the weaker winding when the strong winding should be powered. .

Keep in mind that there's a resistor in series with that coil to weaken it so it doesn't break the targets. If that resistor went way out of spec it could cause the same problem.

Wow, lots of good info here. I checked for continuity with the upper flipper EOS switch and it checks out. Beeps when it's closed, no beep when it's open. Would that signify the contacts are OK? I will get a hold of a metal file and get them good tonight. Should they be shiny after a good filing? They are a blackish color right now.

After this, I will be lost. Lindsey, i'm not sure what you mean by grounding things and checking for increased power. That's starting to get over my head. It doesn't seem like the solenoid is wired wrong, as the wires all looked factory soldered. Do you happen to have a picture of your upper flipper to compare? Or could you draw on one of my pics to give me a better idea of what wires should go where? The resister that limits the power, is that the ceramic rectangle that's located right below the flipper in the pic? It also appears that two grounding wires are soldered to each end of the EOS switch...is this normal or should there be a power wire going to one of the ends?
 
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Wow, lots of good info here. I checked for continuity with the upper flipper EOS switch and it checks out. Beeps when it's closed, no beep when it's open. Would that signify the contacts are OK? I will get a hold of a metal file and get them good tonight. Should they be shiny after a good filing? They are a blackish color right now.

After this, I will be lost. Lindsey, i'm not sure what you mean by grounding things and checking for increased power. That's starting to get over my head. It doesn't seem like the solenoid is wired wrong, as the wires all looked factory soldered. Do you happen to have a picture of your upper flipper to compare? Or could you draw on one of my pics to give me a better idea of what wires should go where? The resister that limits the power, is that the ceramic rectangle that's located right below the flipper in the pic? It also appears that two grounding wires are soldered to each end of the EOS switch...is this normal or should there be a power wire going to one of the ends?

I actually cut out the part about manually grounding the flipper because I figured it would just confuse you and it's not really going to prove anything anyway.

I'll take a look tonight at the pictures from the one I restored. I'm sure I have a decent picture of the upper flipper. If not I should at least be able to describe how it should be wired. I'm not totally convinced it's wired wrong but it's definitely a possibility.

Looking at the picture it appears that there are 2 wires total going to the EOS switch. This is what you want. I've doubled them up for more current flow before but to me it looks like the EOS switch has the appropriate number of wires attached. Whether it's wired correctly or not I can't tell. I'll have to take a closer look at it.

The resistor is the thing you described. The square block thing. A quick way to test it would be to jump around it with a piece of wire with alligator clips on either end. If the flipper is suddenly way stronger you've found your problem. To me it seems unlikely to be the problem but it's easy enough to test and it certainly could cause a problem.
 
I will surely try the jumper/resistor thing tonight, that will be easy.

I don't know if this matters or not, but the lower right flipper (the one that corresponds to the upper flipper) gets fairly large sparks coming from the EOS switches. I don't know if that's a sign of dirty switch contacts or not.
 
I will surely try the jumper/resistor thing tonight, that will be easy.

I don't know if this matters or not, but the lower right flipper (the one that corresponds to the upper flipper) gets fairly large sparks coming from the EOS switches. I don't know if that's a sign of dirty switch contacts or not.

It's normal. My High Speed on the right flipper that has the piggy back contacts work the upper flipper sparks big time as well, and the EOS. Thats why EOS switches need more maintenance or often have to be replaced. As you were explaining the sides of your contacts were all burnt and you sand pappered'em? Sparks are happening.
 
Well, no luck on anything last night. I took a metal file and cleaned the flipper's EOS contacts as well as the flipper button's contacts with no help. I then jumpered the resister below the flipper mech...no change in power. Then I noticed the rod that goes into the solenoid under the playfield was very tarnished and wasn't making good contact, so i sanded it shiny again, still nothing.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe I can just tap the power off of the corresponding lower flipper. Like somehow just run a wire from the lower to the upper flipper. I know that's just a shotgun fix, but i'm running out of ideas.

I made 2 videos showing the exact problem, one under the playfield and one above the playfield. What should I try next?



 
I'm glad you posted the video. I totally misunderstood the problem.

I'm fairly certain you need to adjust the EOS switches on the lower flipper. That also explains why you're getting such huge sparks. I bet they're coming from the switch that powers the upper flipper... because it's closing and opening again really quickly. That's a good way to completely destroy the switch contacts.

With the EOS switch being out of adjustment the flipper pawl is barely closing the EOS switch for the upper flipper due to the momentum of the plunger pulling into the coil sleeve... then due to wear in the flipper link it opens again when the plunger hits the coil stop and the pawl bounces back.

That's my guess anyway. Adjust the EOS switches on the lower flipper. I would start by setting them so they close really early so you can be sure they'll stay closed even with the wear in the flipper link. Don't go too crazy though. You don't want the flipper pawl to jump over the switch stack. Then you'll have a real mess on your hands.

EOS switch adjustment can be a real problem with badly worn flipper links... until you realize what's happening and can adjust accordingly. When flipper links wear they start to cause these kinds of problems.

If that doesn't solve your problem I would consider your suggestion of just connecting it in parallel with the lower flipper. The down side there is you're pumping a lot of current through the cabinet switch.
 
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OK, i think i get what you're saying Lindsey.....the lower flipper must be slamming into the coil stop really hard as the metal bracket holding the coil stop is cracked and the end of the coil sleeve was completely destroyed. I replaced the coil sleeve last night and tightened up the coil stop bracket. This did seem to have an effect on the upper flipper, making it even weaker than it was before.

So you are saying that the lower flipper's EOS switch is too far away from the other switch in the switch stack, thus not cutting off the high power to the lower flipper until the very last second? And thus, using up the high power that is supposed to be going to the upper flipper? The sparks are very large on that switch stack, larger than any of my other pins.

So do i need to adjust the entire switch stack on the lower flipper, or just the EOS portion to make it closer?
 
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Hey Lindsey I can see sparks on my left sling shot on my MGOW pin i am working on. you mentioned in this that the cause could be a EOS issue,I assume this would apply to a switch for a slingshot the same as a flipper? On a side I nearly have it working 100% I will have pics and a vid soon myself woohoo

I'm glad you posted the video. I totally misunderstood the problem.

I'm fairly certain you need to adjust the EOS switches on the lower flipper. That also explains why you're getting such huge sparks. I bet they're coming from the switch that powers the upper flipper... because it's closing and opening again really quickly. That's a good way to completely destroy the switch contacts.

With the EOS switch being out of adjustment the flipper pawl is barely closing the EOS switch for the upper flipper due to the momentum of the plunger pulling into the coil sleeve... then due to wear in the flipper link it opens again when the plunger hits the coil stop and the pawl bounces back.

That's my guess anyway. Adjust the EOS switches on the lower flipper. I would start by setting them so they close really early so you can be sure they'll stay closed even with the wear in the flipper link. Don't go too crazy though. You don't want the flipper pawl to jump over the switch stack. Then you'll have a real mess on your hands.

EOS switch adjustment can be a real problem with badly worn flipper links... until you realize what's happening and can adjust accordingly. When flipper links wear they start to cause these kinds of problems.

If that doesn't solve your problem I would consider your suggestion of just connecting it in parallel with the lower flipper. The down side there is you're pumping a lot of current through the cabinet switch.
 
OK, i think i get what you're saying Lindsey.....the lower flipper must be slamming into the coil stop really hard as the metal bracket holding the coil stop is cracked and the end of the coil sleeve was completely destroyed. I replace the coil sleeve last night and tightened up the coil stop bracket. This did seem to have an effect on the upper flipper, making it even weaker than it was before.

So you are saying that the lower flipper's EOS switch is too far away from the other switch in the switch stack, thus not cutting off the high power to the lower flipper until the very last second? And thus, using up the high power that is supposed to be going to the upper flipper? The sparks are very large on that switch stack, larger than any of my other pins.

So do i need to adjust the entire switch stack, or just the EOS portion to make it closer?

You'll need to adjust both EOS switches, though the one powering the upper flipper is the one I suspect is giving you the problems. In this case the "stack" is just 2 switches.

The way I adjust them is to manually press the plunger into the sleeve until it reaches the coil stop. Then you can move the flipper link in and out with the plunger pressed against the coil stop to see how much wear you've got and account for that when you make your adjustment. That wear in the link is what will cause you problems.

I can't guarantee it will fix it but it's about the last thing I can think of and the first thing that jumped out at me when I saw the video.
 
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Hey Lindsey I can see sparks on my left sling shot on my MGOW pin i am working on. you mentioned in this that the cause could be a EOS issue,I assume this would apply to a switch for a slingshot the same as a flipper? On a side I nearly have it working 100% I will have pics and a vid soon myself woohoo

Sparks are normal. It's probably nothing to worry about. Huge crazy sparks are not normal but some sparking is normal.

An example of something that could cause sparks and heat that can destroy switches would be an open "hold" winding on a flipper coil. The flipper will flutter rapidly opening and closing the EOS switch. I've seen this melt the switch contacts together (on my Bad Girls).

There is no EOS switch on a slingshot so you're probably good :)
 
You'll need to adjust both EOS switches, though the one powering the upper flipper is the one I suspect is giving you the problems. In this case the "stack" is just 2 switches.

The way I adjust them is to manually press the plunger into the sleeve until it reaches the coil stop. Then you can move the flipper link in and out with the plunger pressed against the coil stop to see how much wear you've got and account for that when you make your adjustment. That wear in the link is what will cause you problems.

I can't guarantee it will fix it but it's about the last thing I can think of and the first thing that jumped out at me when I saw the video.

OK, i'll give it a try. I've adjusted the upper EOS switch several times the last few days, i've had it so the contacts separate right away and i've had it so they don't separate until the last second (once the flipper is at full pull). It doesn't seem to make any difference, it's like the switch isn't even there. As it is now, the flipper isn't even flipping hard enough to open the EOS switch contacts up, they stay closed the whole time and it's not making a difference it seems. I haven't messed with the lower switch at all however, so maybe that is the key.

IF i have to wire them parallel, could you give me a diagram on how to do it? Would I disconnect all the current wires from the upper solenoid and just run extension wires from the corresponding lugs of the lower flipper, or do i just need to extend the single wire that give it power (and i'm not sure which one that is exactly).
 
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