Stargate 1-3-1 Error: Vertical Lines in Rug Pattern

RetroCJT

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Hi all, I am currently working on a Stargate PCB, and it had the dreaded 1-3-1 error. I have replaced the ribbon cable, burned all new EPROMS (2532s), new Decoders, new CPU, and did the 4164 RAM upgrade. However all I can get is a repeating rug pattern that has vertical lines in it, as well as the 1-3-1 on the segmented display. All voltages are within spec apart from the +12v being a little high at 12.6v. I have tested the 74153s and all outputs are pulsing correctly. The Williams schematics I have are very blurry and I can't read what pins do what on each chip or I would have tried tracing the issue already. Any help is much appreciated! Thanks all, anyone have any ideas?
 

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This is clean:

Since you did the 4164 upgrade, you only need +5V for the RAM. What method did you use for doing the 4164 upgrade? Adapter or Physically modified the board?

How are you testing the 74153's to know they are pulsing correctly? Are you using an Oscilloscope or a Logic Probe?
For the upgrade I just have the appropriate voltages hooked up to the headers on the board, I haven't made any modifications yet, but I have verified it is correct. I have tested the 74153s with my logic probe on pins 7 and 9 which are the outputs, everything checks out yet no dice! Also, thank you very much for the clean schematics, that helps tremendously!
 
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I think 131 might mean send more money to Mr jrok and avoid the whole old chip mess. If you don't know already Your pretty close to star base alpha down there look him up on eBay
 
I think 131 might mean send more money to Mr jrok and avoid the whole old chip mess. If you don't know already Your pretty close to star base alpha down there look him up on eBay
Paging @mecha who is one of our Williams gurus.
 
For the upgrade I just have the appropriate voltages hooked up to the headers on the board, I haven't made any modifications yet, but I have verified it is correct.
This is confusing…. As mentioned if you swap the rams out to 4164's you need to make modifications to the voltage routing, either by (a) an adapter at the voltage header, (b) modifying the voltage header (my preference as it doesn't cost a penny and can easily be reversed later), or (c) by cutting traces and re-routing on the board.

The question was which of those did you do and you replied that you haven't made any modifications.

You also stated you have the correct voltages… so do you mean that you have the correct voltages as originally designed by Williams for the 4116? or that you have made a modification to supply the correct modified voltage routing for the 4164?

This is an important question/answer
 
The 74153 are 4 to 1 multiplexers. Just because the output gate is pulsing, doesn't mean all 4 inputs are being shifted into the output (could only be moving 3 internally). You'll still get pulsed output, but will be incorrect. You either need to get a logic analyzer and take a snapshot of all 4 input and the output pin to compare (the Slice tool automates this), or do signature analysis (FPGACATBox).

There are a lot of other IC's that can fail causing the 131 too. Very easy to troubleshoot with the right tools.

~Brad
 
The 74153 are 4 to 1 multiplexers. Just because the output gate is pulsing, doesn't mean all 4 inputs are being shifted into the output (could only be moving 3 internally). You'll still get pulsed output, but will be incorrect. You either need to get a logic analyzer and take a snapshot of all 4 input and the output pin to compare (the Slice tool automates this), or do signature analysis (FPGACATBox).

There are a lot of other IC's that can fail causing the 131 too. Very easy to troubleshoot with the right tools.

~Brad
Or send it to bradel and get it fixed.
 
it's in my experience if you dump +12V into 4164s you won't have a rug pattern at all lol so perhaps you have the voltage gimmick correct. I always did the scoresaves method by cutting the +12V trace to the ram section and bridging over old +5V to the old +12V spot (where the new +5V has to go). there are instances on boards I fixed in the past where you have to nerf the old +5V (which is the new A7 line) and ground it instead, but that's a whole separate elaborate mess that probably has nothing to do with your issue.

I've only seen multiplexers fail in the output stage at pins 7 and 9, I've wondered for a long time if the inputs could get jacked up too, but the kind of fast method for diagnosing those is piggybacking new 74153 chips onto the ones soldered into the board. if the game boots up fine then, power down, remove one multiplexer, and power up again until it goes wonky. then you mark the bad chip with sharpie or remember where it was and socket and replace accordingly. (sockets provide convenience but also provide a tell that there was a bad multiplexer previously also)

most likely it's bad multiplexer though that's causing your 1-3-1 line issue. it's a pretty common fault that causes 1-3-1. in the words of Ken Graham years ago this hardware had TTL that was pushed pretty much to their limits, so it's very much a thing to pop 7474s and 74153s.

NINJA EDIT: one of the 74153 chips only uses half the inputs/outputs so it's normal for pin 9 to be tied low. in fact any unused gates on TTL should be tied low, which is what inspired me to do ground mods for 4164s on the A7 line. also in my experience the 41256 rams are way better (more reliable, less chance of artifacts and glitches) but you have to do an additional mod to remove -5V because that is A8 and feeding -5V into an address line will KILL those rams. the Arcadeshop 4164 ram adapters actually nerf the -5V supply so they're compatible with 41256.

the only issue with using the larger capacity rams I've found is that when you do get a real ram error, the 1-3-x code that's reported is actually wrong. it'll be about 4 rams off, so like a 1-2-2 may actually be a bad ram 26. I haven't had to muck with that in a long time, so a) I'm just throwing it out there and b) don't sue me if I'm a ram off. :p
 
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This is confusing…. As mentioned if you swap the rams out to 4164's you need to make modifications to the voltage routing, either by (a) an adapter at the voltage header, (b) modifying the voltage header (my preference as it doesn't cost a penny and can easily be reversed later), or (c) by cutting traces and re-routing on the board.

The question was which of those did you do and you replied that you haven't made any modifications.

You also stated you have the correct voltages… so do you mean that you have the correct voltages as originally designed by Williams for the 4116? or that you have made a modification to supply the correct modified voltage routing for the 4164?

This is an important question/answer
Right, my apologies, I have the board on the test bench not in a cabinet, so in order to feed the correct voltages to the 4164s, I have a switching power supply with +5V, -5V, +12V, and GND. I have test probes hooked to the header pins BUT I have them oriented so that the correct voltages are being sent to the new RAM. (i.e. loop +5V to pin 5 instead of +12V Reg) What I meant by having the correct voltages, is that I hooked it up with all RAM sockets empty, and tested to make sure the voltages were correct for the 4164 upgrade. THEN I populated the sockets with new 4164 RAM.
Very sorry for not going into more detail originally, but on my test bench I have yet to make seperate adapters/connectors for different games, and just look up the pinouts and feed the correct voltages for the pins. So, I have 4164s in it, and they are being fed the correct voltage. I have made no modifications to the actual board, and have hooked test leads to the header pins differently than the factory pin out in order to correctly supply the 4164s. Again very sorry for the confusion.
 
it's in my experience if you dump +12V into 4164s you won't have a rug pattern at all lol so perhaps you have the voltage gimmick correct. I always did the scoresaves method by cutting the +12V trace to the ram section and bridging over old +5V to the old +12V spot (where the new +5V has to go). there are instances on boards I fixed in the past where you have to nerf the old +5V (which is the new A7 line) and ground it instead, but that's a whole separate elaborate mess that probably has nothing to do with your issue.

I've only seen multiplexers fail in the output stage at pins 7 and 9, I've wondered for a long time if the inputs could get jacked up too, but the kind of fast method for diagnosing those is piggybacking new 74153 chips onto the ones soldered into the board. if the game boots up fine then, power down, remove one multiplexer, and power up again until it goes wonky. then you mark the bad chip with sharpie or remember where it was and socket and replace accordingly. (sockets provide convenience but also provide a tell that there was a bad multiplexer previously also)

most likely it's bad multiplexer though that's causing your 1-3-1 line issue. it's a pretty common fault that causes 1-3-1. in the words of Ken Graham years ago this hardware had TTL that was pushed pretty much to their limits, so it's very much a thing to pop 7474s and 74153s.

NINJA EDIT: one of the 74153 chips only uses half the inputs/outputs so it's normal for pin 9 to be tied low. in fact any unused gates on TTL should be tied low, which is what inspired me to do ground mods for 4164s on the A7 line. also in my experience the 41256 rams are way better (more reliable, less chance of artifacts and glitches) but you have to do an additional mod to remove -5V because that is A8 and feeding -5V into an address line will KILL those rams. the Arcadeshop 4164 ram adapters actually nerf the -5V supply so they're compatible with 41256.

the only issue with using the larger capacity rams I've found is that when you do get a real ram error, the 1-3-x code that's reported is actually wrong. it'll be about 4 rams off, so like a 1-2-2 may actually be a bad ram 26. I haven't had to muck with that in a long time, so a) I'm just throwing it out there and b) don't sue me if I'm a ram off. :p
Thank you mecha! Some very useful and helpful info here. I will have to try to locate some new 74153s and try to piggyback, the voltages are correct as I am on the test bench and feeding the appropriate voltages to the headers via test leads from a switching power supply. (I have not yet taken the time to make adapters for each game as I should.) The outputs are all correctly pulsing apart from the pin 9 that is supposed to be low. I have not checked the inputs, but I will do that next. I also need to inspect the board for possibly a bad trace, the board is very clean but I suppose a physical disruption after the output pins would still have the outputs pulse but the signals not make it to the RAM? Just gotta find some 74153s! Thanks again mecha.
 
For me, I modify the PCB so that I don't need an adapter... if for some reason someone doesn't realize that the board has 4164 RAM in it and they don't have the adapter, it will smoke all the RAMS if they put it in a cabinet or on the bench. By modifying the PCB there is a lot less risk of that happening.
 
For me, I modify the PCB so that I don't need an adapter... if for some reason someone doesn't realize that the board has 4164 RAM in it and they don't have the adapter, it will smoke all the RAMS if they put it in a cabinet or on the bench. By modifying the PCB there is a lot less risk of that happening.
I completely agree, I just got this board and have no cabinet for it, once I get to the later stages and have an appropriate cabinet to put it in, I absolutely will make the modifications and label the board for any future arcadeheads! It's just because I have just started tinkering with this one. Thanks anyway though!
 
For me, I modify the PCB so that I don't need an adapter... if for some reason someone doesn't realize that the board has 4164 RAM in it and they don't have the adapter, it will smoke all the RAMS if they put it in a cabinet or on the bench. By modifying the PCB there is a lot less risk of that happening.
why I did scoresaves mod lol

ASK ME HOW I KNOW
 
I think people way, way, way over complicate the 4164 power mod. The easiest, cheapest, and most quickly reversible method of modifying the board is to modify the power header on the CPU board.

You cut two pins off the header and then use one of those cut pins to lay across the back to jumper power where you want it.

More specifically,
1) cut pin 5 (+12v reg) off the header
2) cut pin 9 (-5v) off the header
3) use one of those cut pins to lay across pads 7, 6, & 5 on the backside of the header/board, solder in place.
4) Voilà!! You're done. Should you choose to ever swap back to 4116 you can just spend pennies on a new power header.
5) if you really want to make it dummy-proof you put a label on the board which also cost pennies and can be removed in 2 seconds.

No needless adapters, no hacked up board and cut traces. Totally idiot proof.
 

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