SOLD - GAME Skydiver

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PassivePac-Man said:
So I've never heard the term "flexing your dick" before this thread. I'm assuming someone who flexes his dick is bragging about how big it is. However, if his dick were actually flexing, he would be flaccid, and I'm wondering why someone would be bragging about how big his flaccid dick is. In my experience, dicks are usually compared while hard
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andrewb said:
(Tufnel, this is for you. Who cares, you ask?)

Yes. And in that example, a seller is intentionally looking to exploit buyers who are willing to pay much higher than others for games (or higher than the market price if there is one), by keeping the 'auction' secret.

It's basically a power move, to gain advantage by obfuscating the sale. You're keeping things secret, to try to get more money. And to me, while there's nothing 'illegal' about it, it's just kinda dickish. Because it's great for the individual, but bad for the collective. "Imma get mine, and fuck everyone else".

You also have to have people who are not knowledgeable of the market value (and/or don't care), and who have lots of money to burn. And as a buyer you also have to be in a very specific situation to be willing to pay significantly more than the next guy (e.g., why would you be willing to pay $5k if the next guy is only willing to spend $3500?)

The resulting market turns into a dick flexing parade, with the masses being priced out by a wealthy minority with money to burn, being further fueled by sellers looking to take further advantage of it. And the cycle continues. That's great for the wealthy and the people looking to take advantage of them. However the prices go up for everyone else too.

And that's why MMAO is bad for the hobby as a whole, and why people dislike it. QED.
Click to expand...


One high dollar sale doesn't necessarily inflate the market for everyone else, just like one person catching a crazy deal doesn't lower the market for everyone else.

If Collector Bob gets a $100 EDOT, that doesn't mean the next EDOT is going to be way cheaper than previous ones.

I also find it funny that you say the seller could get more through an auction, then say the seller is exploiting people using MMAO and being greedy. In that case wouldn't an auction make them even greedier trying to get top dollar (the nerve!). ;)

The market will bear whatever people are willing to pay. As long as both sides involved in the transaction are happy, commenting about the sellers (exploiting, greedy, selfish) and the buyers (dick flexing, overpaying, showing off) negatively just seems petty/bitter.
 
osver said:
One high dollar sale doesn't necessarily inflate the market for everyone else, just like one person catching a crazy deal doesn't lower the market for everyone else.

If Collector Bob gets a $100 EDOT, that doesn't mean the next EDOT is going to be way cheaper than previous ones.

I also find it funny that you say the seller could get more through an auction, then say the seller is exploiting people using MMAO and being greedy. In that case wouldn't an auction make them even greedier trying to get top dollar (the nerve!). ;)

The market will bear whatever people are willing to pay. As long as both sides involved in the transaction are happy, commenting about the sellers (exploiting, greedy, selfish) and the buyers (dick flexing, overpaying, showing off) negatively just seems petty/bitter.
Click to expand...


Ok, lets take these one by one:

- It isn't a single sale. I'm referring to a trend. A picture made up of individual dots, which has been consistently increasing in this hobby over the last several years, and especially the last year. (And if you can remember, we even had megathreads about some of those as well. Kozmik Krooz'r anyone?) There have been MANY games that traditionally traded in a given range for years which have suddenly been inflated into the 3k/4k/5k/6k+ range, and *not* because there are suddenly a lot more people wanting them (which is a key element that makes this different from normal supply and demand.)

- Regarding Bob's $100 EDOT, I also pointed out in the other thread that too-low prices don't affect the overall market the way high-profile inflated sales do.

- Regarding auctions, there's a difference between honestly and transparently trying to get a fair market price for something (via an open auction), and using a power-play tactic that involves intentionally obfuscating the process and hiding information to try to squeeze more out of people willing to pay thousands of dollars more than the next person in line. The former is good for the community and economy. The latter is not (and frankly is sleazy, IMO. You may disagree.)

- Dismissing any commentary on this as petty or bitter simply sweeps away and dismisses the larger system-level effects these cycles or predatory selling and overpaying have on the larger community. I have nothing personal against the specific seller or buyer here. It's the larger system effects that I'm more concerned about.

My sense that your argument is, "As long as seller and buyer are happy, who cares. It's none of your business. The end justifies the means." And if it's a prostitute and a john making a consensual transaction completely in private, I agree. But when things are done publicly in a community forum and market, there are secondary effects that impact the larger group, and are attributable to BOTH the seller and buyer (as it's really the codependent relationship between the two that causes a larger effect). You can argue whether you care about those effects or not, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Want evidence? Just look at Pinside. The reason new pins are in the $8000-10000+ range these days is because prices have been driven up by *that* community for years (which has been much more about dick-flexing than the arcade community). It isn't because it costs Stern that much more to make pins today vs 30 years ago.

A similar trend is starting to leak over here, and *is* having an effect on the hobby as a whole (on top of additional natural factors that are also driving prices higher.)

And lastly, you can flex your dick while it's hard. Usually to make it look a little bigger for whoever you're trying to impress.
 
andrewb said:
And lastly, you can flex your dick while it's hard. Usually to make it look a little bigger for whoever you're trying to impress.
Click to expand...

In summary... blah blah games are getting expensive etc etc.

and best quote of 2020.
 
andrewb said:
Ok, lets take these one by one:

- It isn't a single sale. I'm referring to a trend. A picture made up of individual dots, which has been consistently increasing in this hobby over the last several years, and especially the last year. (And if you can remember, we even had megathreads about some of those as well. Kozmik Krooz'r anyone?) There have been MANY games that traditionally traded in a given range for years which have suddenly been inflated into the 3k/4k/5k/6k+ range, and *not* because there are suddenly a lot more people wanting them (which is a key element that makes this different from normal supply and demand.)

- Regarding Bob's $100 EDOT, I also pointed out in the other thread that too-low prices don't affect the overall market the way high-profile inflated sales do.

- Regarding auctions, there's a difference between honestly and transparently trying to get a fair market price for something (via an open auction), and using a power-play tactic that involves intentionally obfuscating the process and hiding information to try to squeeze more out of people willing to pay thousands of dollars more than the next person in line. The former is good for the community and economy. The latter is not (and frankly is sleazy, IMO. You may disagree.)

- Dismissing any commentary on this as petty or bitter simply sweeps away and dismisses the larger system-level effects these cycles or predatory selling and overpaying have on the larger community. I have nothing personal against the specific seller or buyer here. It's the larger system effects that I'm more concerned about.

My sense that your argument is, "As long as seller and buyer are happy, who cares. It's none of your business. The end justifies the means." And if it's a prostitute and a john making a consensual transaction completely in private, I agree. But when things are done publicly in a community forum and market, there are secondary effects that impact the larger group, and are attributable to BOTH the seller and buyer (as it's really the codependent relationship between the two that causes a larger effect). You can argue whether you care about those effects or not, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Want evidence? Just look at Pinside. The reason new pins are in the $8000-10000+ range these days is because prices have been driven up by *that* community for years (which has been much more about dick-flexing than the arcade community). It isn't because it costs Stern that much more to make pins today vs 30 years ago.

A similar trend is starting to leak over here, and *is* having an effect on the hobby as a whole (on top of additional natural factors that are also driving prices higher.)

And lastly, you can flex your dick while it's hard. Usually to make it look a little bigger for whoever you're trying to impress.
Click to expand...

I don't agree completely. Pins are more expensive because they are constantly evolving from simple machines where you knock a ball around to complex games with deep rule sets with good looking art and the ability to mod them up like a Harley Davidson. It can literally take you a year of daily play to learn all of the modes and even longer to conquer them. Games like Lord of the Rings will likely be ones you never master. The game is also dynamic with no one ball being like the next.

Stern has masterfully themed and re themed games that people want and have done so in an increasing economy where people have excess cash to spend.

The other reason is that 1990-ish and newer DMD games are easy to repair by the average person. I got into pinball well before pinside was around and could repair them myself. The games are self diagnostic and tell you exactly what switch, etc is malfunctioning and what color wire to look for. If a board is failing there are literally hundreds of people that will fix them or swap them out with you the same week you have the problem. Most importantly, you are not dealing with an obsolete CRT, monitor board, and flyback that has zero support in some titles. If a pin needs a new dmd an LCD upgrade is considered an improvement and makes the game look better. In a cab it is a horrible degredation and is not even possible in vector games.

Finally, newer games like Stern are using modern board technology that is pretty dirt simple with node boards. While fixing them will be nearly impossible in the future the diagnostic and repair takes 5 minutes. They key is whether parts will be available 10 or 20 years from now, especially if the economy goes in the tank. Until then a new pinball is pretty darn awesome. It draws very little power and looks good just sitting there turned on.

Vids are popular because we are in a nostalgic era for them. Lots of kids like me in the 70s and early 80 along with some from the 90s have gained interest and the younger crowd has gained some interest also, just like the younger crowd has with vinyl records. They will continue to go up in price until they become boring and the new generations want something different. Also, repairing these old machines can be nearly impossible with just a handful of people like you that really know what they are doing. Not too many people are getting into the repair business and there are very few new CRTs, flybacks, etc. Whether you like it or not, arcade 1up satisfies the needs for 90 percent of the people and has also made the vintage market more visible to people.

What could happen is what happened with old pins. Chicago Gaming is building old titles again as remakes. The new machines are as good, if not better, than the old ones. There might be a day where you see a brand new Major Havoc, Lunar Lander, or some other old title brand new. The economy will determine how far down the rabbit hole we go.
 
Last edited:
toddsanderson said:
I don't agree completely. Pins are more expensive because they are constantly evolving from simple machines where you knock a ball around to complex games with deep rule sets with good looking art and the ability to mod them up like a Harley Davidson. It can literally take you a year of daily play to learn all of the modes and even longer to conquer them. Games like Lord of the Rings will likely be ones you never master. The game is also dynamic with no one ball being like the next.

Stern has masterfully themed and re themed games that people want and have done so in an increasing economy where people have excess cash to spend.

The other reason is that 1990-ish and newer DMD games are easy to repair by the average person. I got into pinball well before pinside was around and could repair them myself. The games are self diagnostic and tell you exactly what switch, etc is malfunctioning and what color wire to look for. If a board is failing there are literally hundreds of people that will fix them or swap them out with you the same week you have the problem. Most importantly, you are not dealing with an obsolete CRT, monitor board, and flyback that has zero support in some titles. If a pin needs a new dmd an LCD upgrade is considered an improvement and makes the game look better. In a cab it is a horrible degredation and is not even possible in vector games.

Finally, newer games like Stern are using modern board technology that is pretty dirt simple with node boards. While fixing them will be nearly impossible in the future the diagnostic and repair takes 5 minutes. They key is whether parts will be available 10 or 20 years from now, especially if the economy goes in the tank. Until then a new pinball is pretty darn awesome. It draws very little power and looks good just sitting there turned on.

Vids are popular because we are in a nostalgic era for them. Lots of kids like me in the 70s and early 80 along with some from the 90s have gained interest and the younger crowd has gained some interest also, just like the younger crowd has with vinyl records. They will continue to go up in price until they become boring and the new generations want something different. Also, repairing these old machines can be nearly impossible with just a handful of people like you that really know what they are doing. Not too many people are getting into the repair business and there are very few new CRTs, flybacks, etc. Whether you like it or not, arcade 1up satisfies the needs for 90 percent of the people and has also made the vintage market more visible to people.

What could happen is what happened with old pins. Chicago Gaming is building old titles again as remakes. The new machines are as good, if not better, than the old ones. There might be a day where you see a brand new Major Havoc, Lunar Lander, or some other old title brand new. The economy will determine how far down the rabbit hole we go.
Click to expand...


I'm not following your reasoning. You're saying new pins are more expensive because they're more modern? Or they're more expensive because they can be modded? Just because there's more going on in a pin today doesn't mean it costs more to produce. In fact it's the opposite.

Do you know what the electronics cost that go into new pins these days? Surface mount parts are dirt cheap. And because it's a serially networked system with node boards, they don't have to pay people to do point-to-point assembly and wiring of playfields, etc. These new games are literally designed to be mass-manufactured cheaply (vs older pins, which were more hand-built and hand-wired, i.e., a lot more labor.) Circuit boards cost nothing to produce, especially in volume. You pay a small team up front to do some programming, and artwork, and then you start printing money cranking out cabs. Especially when you have people lining up to pay the cost of a decent used car for one.

They might look and sound more impressive, but using modern manufacturing and electronics, the cost to produce one of these machines is going to be less that it was in the 80's and 90's. Electronics have gotten many times better AND many times cheaper in the last 30 years, and adding new rules and features to pins is just a matter of writing more code, which is cheap. Automation makes a pin cheaper to produce, and yet they sell for much more than they did in previous decades. Do the math. The markup is huge, because Stern knows people in the pin community like the bling bling, from prices of even older titles being driven up over the years.
 
andrewb said:
Ok, lets take these one by one:

- It isn't a single sale. I'm referring to a trend. A picture made up of individual dots, which has been consistently increasing in this hobby over the last several years, and especially the last year. (And if you can remember, we even had megathreads about some of those as well. Kozmik Krooz'r anyone?) There have been MANY games that traditionally traded in a given range for years which have suddenly been inflated into the 3k/4k/5k/6k+ range, and *not* because there are suddenly a lot more people wanting them (which is a key element that makes this different from normal supply and demand.)

- Regarding Bob's $100 EDOT, I also pointed out in the other thread that too-low prices don't affect the overall market the way high-profile inflated sales do.

- Regarding auctions, there's a difference between honestly and transparently trying to get a fair market price for something (via an open auction), and using a power-play tactic that involves intentionally obfuscating the process and hiding information to try to squeeze more out of people willing to pay thousands of dollars more than the next person in line. The former is good for the community and economy. The latter is not (and frankly is sleazy, IMO. You may disagree.)

- Dismissing any commentary on this as petty or bitter simply sweeps away and dismisses the larger system-level effects these cycles or predatory selling and overpaying have on the larger community. I have nothing personal against the specific seller or buyer here. It's the larger system effects that I'm more concerned about.

My sense that your argument is, "As long as seller and buyer are happy, who cares. It's none of your business. The end justifies the means." And if it's a prostitute and a john making a consensual transaction completely in private, I agree. But when things are done publicly in a community forum and market, there are secondary effects that impact the larger group, and are attributable to BOTH the seller and buyer (as it's really the codependent relationship between the two that causes a larger effect). You can argue whether you care about those effects or not, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Want evidence? Just look at Pinside. The reason new pins are in the $8000-10000+ range these days is because prices have been driven up by *that* community for years (which has been much more about dick-flexing than the arcade community). It isn't because it costs Stern that much more to make pins today vs 30 years ago.

A similar trend is starting to leak over here, and *is* having an effect on the hobby as a whole (on top of additional natural factors that are also driving prices higher.)

And lastly, you can flex your dick while it's hard. Usually to make it look a little bigger for whoever you're trying to impress.
Click to expand...

andrewb said:
I'm not following your reasoning. You're saying new pins are more expensive because they're more modern? Or they're more expensive because they can be modded? Just because there's more going on in a pin today doesn't mean it costs more to produce. In fact it's the opposite.

Do you know what the electronics cost that go into new pins these days? Surface mount parts are dirt cheap. And because it's a serially networked system with node boards, they don't have to pay people to do point-to-point assembly and wiring of playfields, etc. These new games are literally designed to be mass-manufactured cheaply (vs older pins, which were more hand-built and hand-wired, i.e., a lot more labor.) Circuit boards cost nothing to produce, especially in volume. You pay a small team up front to do some programming, and artwork, and then you start printing money cranking out cabs. Especially when you have people lining up to pay the cost of a decent used car for one.

They might look and sound more impressive, but using modern manufacturing and electronics, the cost to produce one of these machines is going to be less that it was in the 80's and 90's. Electronics have gotten many times better AND many times cheaper in the last 30 years, and adding new rules and features to pins is just a matter of writing more code, which is cheap. Automation makes a pin cheaper to produce, and yet they sell for much more than they did in previous decades. Do the math. The markup is huge, because Stern knows people in the pin community like the bling bling, from prices of even older titles being driven up over the years.
Click to expand...

Yes, you just made my point. Pins are getting cheaper to produce with smaller sub assemblies of electronics that are easy to diagnose and replace. You no longer have a 10 lb board with complex circuits and a mile of wire and need an EE degree to repair. Since the parts are easy to make and relatively cheap you simply replace them instead of repairing them.

Stern uses those profits to crank games out that people want and supports their machines with parts that are easy to replace and updates the code as needed. When they make a lot of money they can produce more and more machines growing the hobby even more by hitting a diverse group of people. I like Batman, Xmen, Lord of the Rings, Monopoly, Star Trek, etc. Some people like Stranger Things, Metallica, or Playboy. Stern is making what people want and are making a mint doing it. It is also drawing more people into the vintage market making the values of games like Twilight Zone, White water, etc go through the roof. The games that are likely not going to be reproduced for various reasons are bringing crazy money. Those that are being reproduced are being enjoyed by people that may have never been able to play them due to the rarity.

The problem will be repairing the games if Stern, JJP, etc go out of business. Unless someone makes replacement boards it could get interesting just like the monitor boards in my F355's. They have surface mount technology on the back side of the board and nobody services that side and only PNL will work on the front side. Only Ken at irepairsega works on the Naomi system. Someday those machines will likely be in the dumpster unless someone makes a 4:3 25 inch monitor and finds a way to replace the Naomi system. Probably wont happen when maybe only a thousand games or so use that system and monitor. Lots of pinballs out there and a lot of support. Again, the economy is key.
 
Pinball market is a different deal because its really driven by the new games.

You can thank jersey jack for the price bullshit..

He came out as a "boutique" option and proved not only will people pay stupid prices they will prepay for the privilege.

Best thing that ever happened to Stern was jersey jack.. did all their market research for them and made it obvious they can crank their prices up without adding a thing to costs.
 
not explicitly disagreeing here but ... some folks just want as much money as they can get. the reasons are many and no one will ever agree. i don't think there's much more to it than that.

FWIW it's not just arcade games. :)

(a poor comparison, but shit just keeps costing more)

depressingly-overpriced-real-estate.jpg


andrewb said:
Ok, lets take these one by one:

- It isn't a single sale. I'm referring to a trend. A picture made up of individual dots, which has been consistently increasing in this hobby over the last several years, and especially the last year. (And if you can remember, we even had megathreads about some of those as well. Kozmik Krooz'r anyone?) There have been MANY games that traditionally traded in a given range for years which have suddenly been inflated into the 3k/4k/5k/6k+ range, and *not* because there are suddenly a lot more people wanting them (which is a key element that makes this different from normal supply and demand.)

- Regarding Bob's $100 EDOT, I also pointed out in the other thread that too-low prices don't affect the overall market the way high-profile inflated sales do.

- Regarding auctions, there's a difference between honestly and transparently trying to get a fair market price for something (via an open auction), and using a power-play tactic that involves intentionally obfuscating the process and hiding information to try to squeeze more out of people willing to pay thousands of dollars more than the next person in line. The former is good for the community and economy. The latter is not (and frankly is sleazy, IMO. You may disagree.)

- Dismissing any commentary on this as petty or bitter simply sweeps away and dismisses the larger system-level effects these cycles or predatory selling and overpaying have on the larger community. I have nothing personal against the specific seller or buyer here. It's the larger system effects that I'm more concerned about.

My sense that your argument is, "As long as seller and buyer are happy, who cares. It's none of your business. The end justifies the means." And if it's a prostitute and a john making a consensual transaction completely in private, I agree. But when things are done publicly in a community forum and market, there are secondary effects that impact the larger group, and are attributable to BOTH the seller and buyer (as it's really the codependent relationship between the two that causes a larger effect). You can argue whether you care about those effects or not, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Want evidence? Just look at Pinside. The reason new pins are in the $8000-10000+ range these days is because prices have been driven up by *that* community for years (which has been much more about dick-flexing than the arcade community). It isn't because it costs Stern that much more to make pins today vs 30 years ago.

A similar trend is starting to leak over here, and *is* having an effect on the hobby as a whole (on top of additional natural factors that are also driving prices higher.)

And lastly, you can flex your dick while it's hard. Usually to make it look a little bigger for whoever you're trying to impress.
Click to expand...
 
Wyo said:
I mean, okay....but you're the one missing out.

8EE515CA-B55D-4C67-8C2F-91A6FE2E4DAB.md.jpg
Click to expand...

Nice!

I do like it when people feel the need to announce they are leaving the thread instead of just doing it.

very passive aggressive. Must be a flexible dick person.
 
Young photos of Coindork before he grew his goatee & started wearing newsboy caps and glasses are always interesting. Amazing how ripped he used to be.
 
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