Skeeball model S ball count issue

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So I finally started looking at my Skeeball model S machine again after quite a while not touching it. It still has a problem with the ball count, but there's been some progress. It turns out I had the switches in the ball trough wired wrong...the manual shows them as being on common and normally closed instead of normally open like I would think. After doing this nothing seemed to change until JoshBrown80 was messing with the molex plug for the ball trough. When it was unplugged it would then count up whatever switches we tripped and play the game over tune....that definitely seems like some kind of a board problem, hopefully a minor one....it's like something in the ball count circuit is "stuck" on the cpu board and works when the wiring to the ball trough is disconnected. Any thoughts?
 
Have you tried replacing the switch? Those older switches can be intermittent at times, and if that wire isn't adjust just right it will sometimes not register the ball, even though it works with your hand.

The last time a guy called me out because his Model S wasn't counting balls, I found that the switch was mounted in the shipping position (out where you can see it) with the wire bent down, rather than inside the tunnel (where you can't see it) like it should be. I pulled off the switch bracket, turned it around, readjusted the wire, and put it back in. Problem solved...
 
Yep I actually have all new switches on this thing. The only thing I can say is the ball count switch, which is of course the last one to be tripped, isn't hooked up completely yet. I don't see how it would keep the previous switches from counting points and we did attach the wires to another brand new switch to try and see if not having it it was causing the issue. We were tripping these switches all by hand as well. Unplugging the ball trough's connector caused the ball count triggers that had been manually tripped to finally register.
 
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The model S score switches, should be normaly open. The ball count switch works just like the score switch. Really unsual that the PCB is the problem with scoring. If any of the switches are stuck closed, including the coin switch, weird things can happen.
-Mark
 
The model S score switches, should be normaly open. The ball count switch works just like the score switch. Really unsual that the PCB is the problem with scoring. If any of the switches are stuck closed, including the coin switch, weird things can happen.
-Mark

Also of note. If any of the score switches (10-50) are stuck closed or wired N/C none of the switches will count. They should all be wired N/O

Matt
 
The model S score switches, should be normaly open. The ball count switch works just like the score switch. Really unsual that the PCB is the problem with scoring. If any of the switches are stuck closed, including the coin switch, weird things can happen.
-Mark

Also of note. If any of the score switches (10-50) are stuck closed or wired N/C none of the switches will count. They should all be wired N/O

Matt

Apparently you guys haven't worked on one in a while. I was working on one just last week, and I can assure you that the switches are normally closed, and open to score 10 pts. In fact, they are daisy-chained, so that any open switch scores the same 10 pts. 3 opens in a row will score 30 pts.

Even the wiring diagram shows they are NC:

ModelSswitches.jpg


Now, if you are getting NO scoring at all, then look at the connector or the board. if you are getting missed scoring (i.e. 40-pts only scores 30), then look to your wire adjustments. I had to bend the new wires out and then down 90-degrees to make sure they registered properly every time...
 
Yeah I was assuming it was supposed to be normally open until I looked at the manual closer. Since it's not scoring any points and I'm tripping the switches by hand, I'm really thinking it's a board issue. I can get it to coin up, play the little tune, and release the balls. I think I have a display issue too, but first I want to see if I can figure out why it's not counting.
 
The switches ARE normally open. If you look at the wiring diagram, one wire goes to the common, and the other goes to the NO contact. When the switch is at rest, common is connected to the NC contact, and when the switch actuates, common connects to the NO contact, thereby triggering the score.
 
Apparently you guys haven't worked on one in a while. I was working on one just last week, and I can assure you that the switches are normally closed, and open to score 10 pts. In fact, they are daisy-chained, so that any open switch scores the same 10 pts. 3 opens in a row will score 30 pts.

Even the wiring diagram shows they are NC:

ModelSswitches.jpg


Now, if you are getting NO scoring at all, then look at the connector or the board. if you are getting missed scoring (i.e. 40-pts only scores 30), then look to your wire adjustments. I had to bend the new wires out and then down 90-degrees to make sure they registered properly every time...

That wiring diagram is showing the switches in the resting position (COM and N/C connected). Look at where the red wire is connected to each switch (N/O) and where the black wire is connected (C). If all the switches in a single circuit were wired C-->N/C and one of them opened how would the logic know that one of 4 switches was open?

The switches are supposed to be wired COM and N/O. That way when a switch closes it pulses the signal to COM at the logic board and it gives you 10 points.

I worked on Model S Skeeballs for close to 15 years. I'm pretty sure I know these machines like the back of my hand. Of course the OP could always call Skeeball to verify.

The two count switches in the ball channel count the balls (as we all know). The one in the back counts balls played and the one in the front counts the balls that have past the release solenoid.
 
See, I read that schematic like this: when the switch tab connected to center moves from the NC position to the NO position, it completes the circuit and registers 10 points. I get what your reasoning is, but when compared to the way a normal control panel game button works, the switch goes from NO to NC (or center) which is opposite the way this is working. Now, just because there is no wire connected to NC does not mean that the switch isn't in the NC position, and moves to the NO position to score. I think we've just worded it differently, but mean the same thing.

I worked on one recently that I put my meter on the wired lugs, and got a continuity signal. When triggered, that switch went open and scored 10-pts. The machine scored just fine.

Now, it's possible it wasn't a model "S", but I'm pretty sure it was...
 
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I worked at Skeeball handling all of the repairs on the PCB's for 4 years. The switches are wired Normally Open on the scoring section. The ball count switch is wired for both normally open and normally closed. (has all 3 terminals wired on the switch) Check the wiring on that switch.

-Mark
 
I worked at Skeeball handling all of the repairs on the PCB's for 4 years. The switches are wired Normally Open on the scoring section. The ball count switch is wired for both normally open and normally closed. (has all 3 terminals wired on the switch) Check the wiring on that switch.

-Mark
That's weird. I'm not discounting you especially since you've worked for Skeeball, but the manual does look like it shows them as wired to normally closed as Mod said. Weird. :confused: Oh well. I might as well properly attach the wiring for that ball count switch just to eliminate that as a possible variable.
 
but the manual does look like it shows them as wired to normally closed as Mod said.

That is NOT was the manual is showing you.
It is showing the "switch" in the Normally Closed "position".

The wires are actually connected to the Normally Open and the Common terminals.

Black going to "C".
Red going to "NO".

That is for the scoring switches.

The ball count switch has -
Black going to "C".
Red going to "NO".
Green going to "NC".

Make sure you have continuity between the Black and Green when the switch is at rest. (not activated)
And between Black and Red when a ball activates it. (not just by hand, check with a ball resting on the switch)

I can't explain Mod's findings, but I would ask that he took a second look at it, because technically it should not count if even one switch is wired C and NC. It would be like having a direct short, there's would be no "off/on" action for the system to "count", it would be stuck "on".
 

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Hmm okay had a "duh" moment looking at the wiring again. I realized the switches were all wire backwards with common to the normally open and vice versa. Instead of a black wire it's actually white for the common loop after the first switch so maybe someone messed with the wiring at one point. Anyway, I fixed the ghetto rig on the ball count switch and moved things around to their proper location and still no joy. I plan to take another look at the wiring tomorrow to make sure it's correct, but I think I've got it now. That's the second time the last few days that I thought I had the problem figured out too. Bah.
 
Try disconnecting ALL of the switches and touch the two wires that would go to the first switch together and see if you get anything. I'm pretty sure that you have already changed the switches but just because they are new that doesn't mean that they are good. If one of them is internally stuck closed none of the other switches will do anything.

Also, while you have the wires removed from the switches check them for +5 and GND. You should be able to measure close to +5 across the switch wires using a meter. If you have it there then the wires are at least connected to the logic board. If you dont then you either have a bad GND or signal (score, points whatever you want to call it) wire.

Those CPU's are pretty reliable. In the 15 years that I worked on Model S machines I never had s switch inputs failure.

Matt
 
Give us the run down on the machines sequence from when it is first turned on.....

Should boot up and then go into circling zeros for the attract mode, may display current high score on the machine and then back to circling zeros.
When it is in attract mode does it coin up and spit out the balls and all that properly?
How many balls does it have in it ?
What are the dips set to as far as how many balls are being played ? (1, 6, 9, etc)
Have you pulled the CPU boards and checked for cold solder joints?
Have you checked the header pins and connectors that plug into the CPU board?

Seems like I keep wanting to say there is another switch that counts the balls when they get dispensed. (racking my brain trying to remember now)
Ball release switch maybe.... can't recall what that one was for.
 
Seems like I keep wanting to say there is another switch that counts the balls when they get dispensed. (racking my brain trying to remember now)
Ball release switch maybe.... can't recall what that one was for.

That switch is on the same bracket as the ball release solenoid. It counts to 9 (so long as the game is set to 9 balls per play) and closes the ball release.

Matt
 
It depends on how old his Model S machine is. They made so many "upgrades" to that machine over the years.
If he has the older "rocker arm" release, it will drop all nine balls in the beginning.
If it is newer, it has a "single ball" system in it. This system will work with as little as one ball in the machine, because it will keep ball release solenoid engaged until it sees nine balls have been released. (the ball release switch mounted on the same plate as the solenoid)
It also depends on the EPROM revision..some software supports both releases, and you must set the dip switch to the correct ball release system.
-Mark
 
This machine has the old rocker arm release.

also, upon plugging it in we get the power up sound. Solid 8s on all displays..after a few seconds the winner lights start flashing...you coin up the game, makes the normal coin up music and releases the balls. The machine and display appear dead after that point and neither the display nor the scoring changes state.
 
This machine has the old rocker arm release.

also, upon plugging it in we get the power up sound. Solid 8s on all displays..after a few seconds the winner lights start flashing...you coin up the game, makes the normal coin up music and releases the balls. The machine and display appear dead after that point and neither the display nor the scoring changes state.
What he said. :) Thanks for posting the info bro. As far as the displays, a few of the bulb sockets need replacing, but it does look like it's just displaying all 8s.
 
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