Sinister Rev B error 0-3-1 No Rug Pattern

[chirp]

Hi yall,
Currently doing my best to troubleshoot and repair a sinister that has recently failed. While operational, I did notice high score corruption occurring. I have already gone through and checked all voltages, which are good, and removed and replaced the Ram at position 3-1 as well, this as expected did not restore the machine to operation. In my testing on the 74153 Multiplexers, I did notice a chip pulsing on pin 7 at a much faster rate than other chips with pin 9 being set to low at all times. This is the last 74153 in the section and so I am assuming pin 9 to be the half set to ground. I am ordering a new 74153 chip to test this via piggybacking but the lack of rug pattern has me unsure of if this will resolve the issue. Wondering if any folks have thoughts on alternative causes of the 0-3-1 error that may result in failure to boot minus a rug pattern.

Thank you

 

[Arcadenut]

Do you have an Oscilloscope? It would also help if you mention chip locations and how you are testing.

Piggybacking may or may not work, depending on the issue. Generally, it does not work.

 

[braedel]

Pin 9 on 4F is not used. The board renders out whatever is in the RAM, if there is an addressing issue, no rug pattern. Check the video decoders too.

*Pulsing on the 153 outputs doesn't mean it's correct.



~Brad

 

[chirp]

Pin 9 on 4F is not used. The board renders out whatever is in the RAM, if there is an addressing issue, no rug pattern. Check the video decoders too.

*Pulsing on the 153 outputs doesn't mean it's correct.

View attachment 849602

~Brad

Hi Brad,
I have two quick questions for you, First off, I have a Robotron in good working condition with original video decoder proms. The CPU board revision is the same and the robotron and sinistar decoder roms have the same numbers. Am I correct in assuming that these are interchangeable components. I have also a limited set of tools, especially when it comes to these older proms, is there a good method for in circuit verification? I did not find any information online that provided a method of verification. Thank you again for your help and I appreciate your youtube videos as well!

 

[braedel]

If the Video Decoders are marked the same (4 and 6), then they are identical. There is no way to verify the checksum in-circuit and only a handful of programmers have the vector mapping to read/write. Just pop the ones in from Robotron and see if that makes any difference. If the same result, try swapping the MPU from Robotron over and see if it will boot. That will at least remove doubt of power issue or ROM board.

~Brad

 

[chirp]

If the Video Decoders are marked the same (4 and 6), then they are identical. There is no way to verify the checksum in-circuit and only a handful of programmers have the vector mapping to read/write. Just pop the ones in from Robotron and see if that makes any difference. If the same result, try swapping the MPU from Robotron over and see if it will boot. That will at least remove doubt of power issue or ROM board.

~Brad

After swapping both decoder roms and the MPU I still have error 0-3-1 with no rug pattern. I also replaced the 74153 chip at location 4F with no change in board operation.

 

[braedel]

Try the Robotron ROM board with the Robotron MPU (leave the Widget-I/O unplugged) in the Sinistar cab..

~Brad

 

[chirp]

Try the Robotron ROM board with the Robotron MPU (leave the Widget-I/O unplugged) in the Sinistar cab..
inutes ago · Viewing thread Are JROK boards re
~Brad

Same error code In this case represented by 1-3-1 instead of 0-3-1 using MPU and Decoder roms from Robotron with Sinistar IO board disconnected. No Rug pattern.

 

[braedel]

Oh, I was suggesting you use the MPU (main board) from Robotron too. This will verify the power/harness, etc is good/bad in the Sinistar cab.

~Brad

 

[chirp]

Oh, I was suggesting you use the MPU (main board) from Robotron too. This will verify the power/harness, etc is good/bad in the Sinistar cab.

~Brad

My mistake, I returned all components to the robotron main board and was able to successfully launch the game. I was also able to launch the game with the video decoder proms and the CPU from the sinistar cabinet when transplanted into Robotron.

 

[mecha]

Same error code In this case represented by 1-3-1 instead of 0-3-1 using MPU and Decoder roms from Robotron with Sinistar IO board disconnected. No Rug pattern.

I reckon lack of regulated +12V will leave you with a solid colored screen

I'm trying to make sense of your thread here, but it sounds like you ran both Sinistar and Robotron in the Sinistar cabinet and got 0-3-1 and 1-3-1 errors respectively.

if you have linear power supply then check the fuses. I've never seen a BR2 go bad before, but the more common problem with those power supplies will be they've never been serviced and the solder to the header pins will be bad from plugging/unplugging them over the last 40+ years. if you have a switching power supply you can test the MPU power plug grey-yellow (regulated +12V for the DRAM section) against black (ground) wires.

if you were testing with the same MPU but different rom boards, Sinistar should be a Rev. D model. they have the orange inductors near the power header on the MPU, and they're prone to breaking off at the legs. there's 4 inductors for +5V (the longer flat one), regulated +12V, unregulated +12V, and -5V. you'll want to inspect there, that could be the simplest cause of any of your DRAM voltages being absent. I'm sorry I'm late to posting in the thread, I had a lot of random projects at work this week.

 

[chirp]

I reckon lack of regulated +12V will leave you with a solid colored screen

I'm trying to make sense of your thread here, but it sounds like you ran both Sinistar and Robotron in the Sinistar cabinet and got 0-3-1 and 1-3-1 errors respectively.

if you have linear power supply then check the fuses. I've never seen a BR2 go bad before, but the more common problem with those power supplies will be they've never been serviced and the solder to the header pins will be bad from plugging/unplugging them over the last 40+ years. if you have a switching power supply you can test the MPU power plug grey-yellow (regulated +12V for the DRAM section) against black (ground) wires.

if you were testing with the same MPU but different rom boards, Sinistar should be a Rev. D model. they have the orange inductors near the power header on the MPU, and they're prone to breaking off at the legs. there's 4 inductors for +5V (the longer flat one), regulated +12V, unregulated +12V, and -5V. you'll want to inspect there, that could be the simplest cause of any of your DRAM voltages being absent. I'm sorry I'm late to posting in the thread, I had a lot of random projects at work this week.

Looking again at the Sinistar today. I ran both Sinistar and Robotron in the sinistar cabinet. Robotron was run with its own ROM board as well and I was able to get robotron to launch in the existing machine using the same harness as Sinistar. During this time I was also able to verify the video decoder roms and the CPU as well. The game is running on an SMPS with a converter board and my revisions are revB for the MPU and revC for the rom board respectively 12V a little high at 12.53 on the header pins. I also measure 12.52 on pin 8 VDD of my DRAM.

 

[mecha]

Looking again at the Sinistar today. I ran both Sinistar and Robotron in the sinistar cabinet. Robotron was run with its own ROM board as well and I was able to get robotron to launch in the existing machine using the same harness as Sinistar. During this time I was also able to verify the video decoder roms and the CPU as well. The game is running on an SMPS with a converter board and my revisions are revB for the MPU and revC for the rom board respectively 12V a little high at 12.53 on the header pins. I also measure 12.52 on pin 8 VDD of my DRAM.

lol yeah never measure voltage at the 4116 rams themselves. also +12V isn't regulated, it's normal for it run between 11-14V. the +5V on Williams games should be around 5.00V to the chips on the MPU. they run pretty reliably as low as 4.90V in my experiences, the linear power supplies will typically achieve somewhere within that range. you will make these games very mad if you run the voltage too high.

if you could get video of what's showing up on the screen, that would be helpful.

 

[chirp]

It was not allowing me to post a video. The below photo is consistent with the black bar scanning from left to right but dependent on V-Hold. Some rug pattern can be seen briefly every once in a while. Additionally, why should I not test the 12V directly on the ram, just curious. In addition, Robotron appeared just fine on our monitor so It is definitely not a problem there.

 

[mecha]

It was not allowing me to post a video. The below photo is consistent with the black bar scanning from left to right but dependent on V-Hold. Some rug pattern can be seen briefly every once in a while. Additionally, why should I not test the 12V directly on the ram, just curious. In addition, Robotron appeared just fine on our monitor so It is definitely not a problem there.

(credit to @braedel for posting this, focus on 4116)



if you slip with the meter measuring +12V and bridge to A1, boom. same thing if you slip measuring -5V, boom. I read a long time ago you should never measure at the rams and that's how I have never done it. of course back then I didn't understand why it was bad, but now I'm showing you why it's bad. I've personally never done it but I've fixed games for people that have. I honestly don't remember how far back it goes, it's been multiple lifetimes ago for me now.

 

[chirp]

(credit to @braedel for posting this, focus on 4116)
View attachment 852857


if you slip with the meter measuring +12V and bridge to A1, boom. same thing if you slip measuring -5V, boom. I read a long time ago you should never measure at the rams and that's how I have never done it. of course back then I didn't understand why it was bad, but now I'm showing you why it's bad. I've personally never done it but I've fixed games for people that have. I honestly don't remember how far back it goes, it's been multiple lifetimes ago for me now.

Much appreciated, thank you for your explanation!!!

 

[mecha]

Much appreciated, thank you for your explanation!!!

I'm very curious what's wrong with your game. one of those obligatory "I have to see it" scenarios.

 

[chirp]

Pin 9 on 4F is not used. The board renders out whatever is in the RAM, if there is an addressing issue, no rug pattern. Check the video decoders too.

*Pulsing on the 153 outputs doesn't mean it's correct.

View attachment 849602

~Brad

Would anyone be able to link a source to this diagram? I have been unable to find one online. Additionally would I be able to boot up the sinistar in another machine by simply replacing the ROM board(Joust or Robotron are my options i believe both have the same MPU revision with decoder roms matching) with sinistars rom board? I would be able to verify that exclusively if so. When I took a look at it I noticed some cracked solder joints(since repaired) around the board itself and will look more closely at it tomorrow. Do we also know the testing process for willaims games like this? Specifically the exact order it may attempt to check things or the minimum amount of chips required to start the test at all? I am additionally planning on removing from the ROM board all extra chips as outlines here https://www.arcaderepair.net/williams-rom-board-information/ to see if I can see any change at all.

 

[mecha]

Would anyone be able to link a source to this diagram? I have been unable to find one online. Additionally would I be able to boot up the sinistar in another machine by simply replacing the ROM board(Joust or Robotron are my options i believe both have the same MPU revision with decoder roms matching) with sinistars rom board? I would be able to verify that exclusively if so. When I took a look at it I noticed some cracked solder joints(since repaired) around the board itself and will look more closely at it tomorrow. Do we also know the testing process for willaims games like this? Specifically the exact order it may attempt to check things or the minimum amount of chips required to start the test at all? I am additionally planning on removing from the ROM board all extra chips as outlines here https://www.arcaderepair.net/williams-rom-board-information/ to see if I can see any change at all.

yes you can interchange rom boards. but as braedel said don't plug the input board in. Sinistar will just be sideways.

if you switch rom boards the CMOS will reset so you'll lose free play settings and need to press Advance to get into the game.