Should I go LED for my Judge Dredd?

[stevenp61]

You're right, it was a bit misleading. Except a lot of the LED machines I've seen from the vendors who sell the LED's really make it bright. Everytime I see someone LED a machine they tend to put in the brightest bulbs they can. Now this isn't a problem in a really well lit environment, but hey, I tend to keep my arcade a bit more arcade looking with black lights and lower light levels.


Then there's the flicker. Sure that doesn't bother everyone, but it does me. I'll stick to regular bulbs, thank you.

Ditto. LEDs may be OK in a very bright room, but who plays pinball like that? I put a selection of colored bulbs in 3 of my games and I think they really help bring out the pf colors. (For example, I have yellow bulbs by the gold ramps/ring in LotR, and green ones by the slings w/green vegetation.) Colored bulbs glow and fade smoothly as the game was designed to do, and they look much better under plastics where you might see a bit of the bulb directly--they blend in much better than white bulbs.

The strobe effect really does bother me--a lot. And like I said earlier, anything that impairs gameplay is NOT an acceptable mod. A few LEDs might be cool, if well-selected, but I've never seen a full-LED game that wasn't annoyingly glaring. The mellower lighting is nicer. But then again, I also adjust my tv's to proper contrast/brightness/color levels. All the ones you see set up in stores, and those in many friends' homes, have the color way too saturated and contrast cranked up. People on your tv screen should look like a person standing next to your tv in a normally-lit room (easy rule-of-thumb test). Try it. If the tv characters are glowing with cartoonish saturated color, then your tv is way off. And full LEDs in your pins might be for you. ;^) But more color isn't always better.

 

[astrodan88]

Then there's the flicker. Sure that doesn't bother everyone, but it does me. I'll stick to regular bulbs, thank you.

There are varieties of leds specifically designed to prevent flicker and ghosting. Cointaker doesn't have them but pinball life has them; perhaps other sources as well.
Flicker and ghosting is also very much game and application specific; it is going to show up in certain spots on certain games; not everywhere, everytime.

It is annoying, true, but there are ways around it. Not a deal breaker in my book.

 

[Cobra99]

Ditto. LEDs may be OK in a very bright room, but who plays pinball like that? I put a selection of colored bulbs in 3 of my games and I think they really help bring out the pf colors. (For example, I have yellow bulbs by the gold ramps/ring in LotR, and green ones by the slings w/green vegetation.) Colored bulbs glow and fade smoothly as the game was designed to do, and they look much better under plastics where you might see a bit of the bulb directly--they blend in much better than white bulbs.

The strobe effect really does bother me--a lot. And like I said earlier, anything that impairs gameplay is NOT an acceptable mod. A few LEDs might be cool, if well-selected, but I've never seen a full-LED game that wasn't annoyingly glaring. The mellower lighting is nicer. But then again, I also adjust my tv's to proper contrast/brightness/color levels. All the ones you see set up in stores, and those in many friends' homes, have the color way too saturated and contrast cranked up. People on your tv screen should look like a person standing next to your tv in a normally-lit room (easy rule-of-thumb test). Try it. If the tv characters are glowing with cartoonish saturated color, then your tv is way off. And full LEDs in your pins might be for you. ;^) But more color isn't always better.

This seems like personal preference. I have done the full kit on my JD and it looks outstanding No ghosting and this thing pops. Most of these opinions are just that and cannot comment on the actual machine I can. All my machine are in LEDs . Next are ToM and T3

http://www3.telus.net/c0bra99/new20.JPG

 

[stevenp61]

Some LED observations

I have some observations on LEDs (there's even a half-positive one!) based on recent (yesterday/today's) experience. Seems that I just picked up a Data East game where the owner put in almost all LEDs. Very nice game, hated the LEDs and spent hours removing most of them. Here are some things to consider:

First thing I noted was the strobe effect from the controlled illumination (inserts etc.). Hard on the eyes, esp. in a dim room. Really impairs the playing experience for me. This was after my first trial games in a dimly-lit room. LEDs in a pin give HARSH lighting.

White LEDs are bluish-white, *not* the normal yellowish-white of incandescents. So, they look better with white/blue inserts. Tend to look crappier around reds, yellows, greens, etc. and do NOT enhance the artwork on the pf/plastics. (Do a side-by-side and see for yourself. I did this many times around the pf to see which type of bulb looked better in various spots.)

The LEDs are NOT necessarily brighter. My game has several large rectangular inserts. The 3-LED bulbs (wedge base) lit the center, and the blueish light did not look so great on larger inserts--they tend to light the middle of the insert so you can't see the whole design lit, and also made many colors look crappy. (The wide-angle concave-lens #44 replacements fare no better.) Putting in a regular #44 lit up the entire insert more smoothly and made colors look better on the many inserts (smaller inserts as well), as well as making the multicolored graphics MORE visible overall.

LEDs under colored translucent pop caps are totally blah. You could see a spot of light in the middle (3 spots, actually) and the white LED didn't look great under the red cap. OTOH, a plain old #555 incandescent looked much better--the whole cap lit up more uniformly and color seemed richer. No contest.

As you probably know, LEDs are useless for lighting inserts where the socket is mounted sideways under the pf. They are still VERY directional.

For above-the-pf lighting, you could see part of some LEDs directly under some plastics--bright, glaring light that was distracting and did NOT lend well with the color scheme. I put red bulbs under the red slings and top lane dividers--the colors and surrounding pf popped MUCH more with colored bulbs than with LEDs. And when you can see a bulb directly, it is more subdued and BLENDS IN with the local color scheme. Same applies to a few yellow plastics near the top of the game--yellow bulbs really bring out the artwork and enhanced the color, while white LEDs made bright spots on the plastics and did not make the colors pop at all. And again for orange side plastics--orange bulbs brought out the color nicely and made the whole plastic glow better, unlike the LEDs.

BUT: I did leave the LEDs in the backbox--a whole bunch of 3-element #44 replacements and some 9-LED #89 bulbs. Why? they were pretty bright straight on, and (for a change) looked decent with the blueish color scheme of the bg. The local spotting was OK b/c there are lots of bulbs there and the strobing is muted when passing thru the bg itself.

LEDs can be ok for smaller, single-color inserts (like colored arrows, drop target labels, etc.). Colored LEDs can help a bit. But colored incandescent bulbs also really make the colors pop AND give more uniform illumination.

Until the circuitry and plastics are designed to handle LEDs (aesthetically and dynamically), I'll be sticking primarily with incandescents (plain and colored). I honestly don't know why many people rave about LEDs--side-by-side comparisons on a few games make it clear to me that regular bulbs provide warmer, more uniform illumination that makes the colored artwork look better. And they NEVER produce an annoying and distracting strobe effect.

To the OP: Try replacing those 555 LED's with colored incandescent bulbs that match the local plastic/pf color, and then tell me which one you think looks better!

 

[metahugh]

I have some observations on LEDs...

Good observations. They need to be used sparingly. A little over a month ago I did this to my Spiderman:

And I'm getting ready to pull the majority of them back out. I want some accent lighting and even though I had high hopes for this look I just can't stick with it.

I think LEDs will always be great in the backbox of pins but on the playfield is up in the air for me.

 

[Rob T]

Good observations. They need to be used sparingly. A little over a month ago I did this to my Spiderman:

And I'm getting ready to pull the majority of them back out. I want some accent lighting and even though I had high hopes for this look I just can't stick with it.

I think LEDs will always be great in the backbox of pins but on the playfield is up in the air for me.

It looks great to me.

 

[astrodan88]

I have done partial leds in all my pins and it showed me one thing to really be true: installing good looking led conversions is a skill. It took quite a bit of trial and error to find mix of bulbs (leds and incandescent) that gave the best overall effect.
You need to select the right bulb and brightness for the right application, if not, then you will get the problems others mentioned: too bright, not bright enough, flicker, colors off. But all these issues can be resolved with careful led selection.

When it comes to something like colored leds in GI then you are always going to have different opinions as to whether it looks good or not (as in pic above). But after messing with leds quite a bit I can say that almost every game could be improved aesthetically with some leds, even if it's just the backbox or some scattered GI.

Go team led!

 

[Nerbflong]

Stevenp61

Some great points there!

I agree, LED's tend to be strobish. Instant on and off. Incandescents glow on and off, which is much easier on the eyes at least to me!

Most white LED's seem to fail in the green department and offer a bluish white light. While its pretty cool looking, its very clinical and harsh looking to me. So yeah, under colored inserts, wow! Yuck!! So much for original color of the insert. Sure, I know, incandescents make it look a bit more yellow, but at least there's green in the mix!

And as you mentioned, the LEDs are spotty. So directional and in some inserts it just looks funny to see a single bright point where instead an incandescent would illuminate the entire area better.

I'll stick to incandescents for the most part, despite the benefits for now. At least until there's a full white led that's got equal shares of red, green, and blue AND if its less directional. Maybe. Heee. The strobing and instant on still bugs me.

Is this like the classic CRT versus LCD debate in video games?

 

[gibbous]

Boy, you guys are really making me think twice about the LED kit orders I have been contemplating. Especially you, Hugh. That pic looks great, but I guess it's hard to play over long periods...?

I really like the energy savings, but I play A LOT, and don't know if I'd be able to get used to the harsh light of the LEDs. Ironically, the area where LEDs would produce the most energy savings, the GI, is where most LED opponents dislike using them most!

 

[metahugh]

Boy, you guys are really making me think twice about the LED kit orders I have been contemplating. Especially you, Hugh. That pic looks great, but I guess it's hard to play over long periods...?

I really like the energy savings, but I play A LOT, and don't know if I'd be able to get used to the harsh light of the LEDs. Ironically, the area where LEDs would produce the most energy savings, the GI, is where most LED opponents dislike using them most!

It really did bother my eyes after playing for about 30 minutes or so. The excessive blue bothered me. This morning I did some tweaking and ended up with this:

Shot of the LEDs:

It still has a blue hue but it is definitely not as bright now. These are all frosted bulbs. I think Cointaker has the best frosted bulbs.

The bulbs on the far left and right are warm white frosteds and I used to have all of the bulbs the same. It looked great and I played the game close to a year with them in with no issues. The blue LED the second from the left and the red LED second from the right are both from Pinball Life. They are frosted bulbs and as you can see they are not as bright as the cointakers... and in this configuration I think this is a good thing. Too much of one color is not appealing to me.

 

[metahugh]

Another thing, I will say I am the opposite of most LED haters... I think they look better in the GI than the inserts. Not in a total GI conversion though but in spots.

 

[gibbous]

So after a year of all "warm white" blues, it started to get to you?

So much for the "warm white" LEDs. They really do come off looking WAAY blue in that picture.

 

[Rob T]

Looks great Hugh, I really like how you are fine tuning the LED's to get the correct balance for you. Great work.

 

[Rob T]

Another thing, I will say I am the opposite of most LED haters... I think they look better in the GI than the inserts. Not in a total GI conversion though but in spots.

I continue to be amazed by the large number of differing opinions when it comes to LED usage and specifically where they should or should not be used.

It seems that a lot of people who have little or no use for LED's in GI or Inserts say that they *would* use them in the translite. But I've seen LED's used in translite's that look pretty bad as they actually make it look washed out.

 

[metahugh]

So after a year of all "warm white" blues, it started to get to you?

So much for the "warm white" LEDs. They really do come off looking WAAY blue in that picture.

No, actually I only installed the blues, reds and oranges on the 24th of Feb and I have only put maybe 10 games on it from then to now. It didn't take much to get sick of the blue and red.

I had warm white LEDs on the backboard for about a year and those were fine on the eyes.

 

[metahugh]

Looks great Hugh, I really like how you are fine tuning the LED's to get the correct balance for you. Great work.

That is key, to experiment on your own and choose what works for you. I have scattered LEDs in my game and I think what I have chosen has been fine. I am definitely not going to be able to ever convert an entire game to LED... at least not at this time.

I continue to be amazed by the large number of differing opinions when it comes to LED usage and specifically where they should or should not be used.

It seems that a lot of people who have little or no use for LED's in GI or Inserts say that they *would* use them in the translite. But I've seen LED's used in translite's that look pretty bad as they actually make it look washed out.

Personally I have the most problems with LEDs in inserts. They blink instead of fade and that bothers me. There is no way around that except to fix the software which probably won't happen. The noflix LEDs have a capacitor in them which I think alleviates the issue a bit but even those are not a solid fix.

 

[Rob T]

Personally I have the most problems with LEDs in inserts. They blink instead of fade and that bothers me. There is no way around that except to fix the software which probably won't happen. The noflix LEDs have a capacitor in them which I think alleviates the issue a bit but even those are not a solid fix.

Other than the LED's blinking in the inserts, do you find any other issues such as not fully illuminating the insert (hot spotting)? What LED's specifically are you using in the inserts?

 

[gibbous]

Ahh, ok. So the backboard with warm whites was fine. Blue light is said to be particularly harsh on the eyes.

The flicker is a annoying. I threw some of the CT sample ones into my STTNG shield inserts. Wow the flicker is terrible there. First of all, it always flickers, no matter what setting they happen to be on. If you kick it into test mode and go through all 8 or so settings, what you get is just a brighter or dimmer flicker, EXCEPT for number 7 or something where for some reason the strobe is very distractingly slow and out of sequence with the other settings.

I might try the ghostbuster one from PL or something similar from where ever because I sure would like to alleviate the heat under those inserts to prevent further cracking. Again, the pros of significantly less energy consumption and less heat are big pluses. I guess you just have to fine tune each machine to your own personal liking.

 

[Rob T]

The flicker is a annoying. I threw some of the CT sample ones into my STTNG shield inserts. Wow the flicker is terrible there. First of all, it always flickers, no matter what setting they happen to be on. If you kick it into test mode and go through all 8 or so settings, what you get is just a brighter or dimmer flicker, EXCEPT for number 7 or something where for some reason the strobe is very distractingly slow and out of sequence with the other settings.

I might try the ghostbuster one from PL or something similar from where ever because I sure would like to alleviate the heat under those inserts to prevent further cracking. Again, the pros of significantly less energy consumption and less heat are big pluses. I guess you just have to fine tune each machine to your own personal liking.

Why do you think that the ghostbuster's would be better in terms of flicker?

The reason I ask is because it seems to me that "ghosting" and "flicker" are two different issues. Ghosting is where the LED never completely turns off compared to a regular bulb that would. Flicker is a flickering or strobe effect when the bulb should be solid on. Am I wrong in my understanding?

 

[gibbous]

Ahh, good point. I guess I just assumed what ever fixes the ghosting would also fix the flicker. The ghosting doesn't bother me all that much.

Welcome to the forums, BTW.