PlayChoice 10 Game PCB Cloning/ Coping/ Re-Engineering
_________________________________________________________
"EDIT SEPT 27th 2012"
I've been informed that the prototypes will be arriving for testing shortly; for the PCH1-02-ROM.
_________________________________________________________
This post is a product of several days of conversation with other Local PC-10 owners. 3 of us to be more percise.
We were discussing the problem of sacrificing vintage PC-10 Game PCB's to convert them into something else. Either it be another PC-10 game; or just one of the main possible nes games that will work on the PC-10.
Then we evaluated the praticality and legality of Cloning, Coping or Re-Engineering the Game PCB. Sorta a grey area in both instances. As well as a morality issue. I'll start off with praticallity.
Cloning or Coping at our level would be very time consuming. As this would be a side project between life work etc. One of us, has already spent a day researching for the original parts required for PCH1-01-ROM. Then there would be the cost of having some off-shore company to print the PCBs. After that, there are two options, sell as a kit unassembled or assemble it our selves. With atleast 20 mins of soldering per board. Cost and time just go through the roof.
One of several issues here is that the PCB would be very similar to the original. If we were to do this, we would want the Cloned PCB`s to have a very distungishable appearence. If sold as a kit, we would have to test all the used chips ect. Again leading into that same time consumption. Potential benefits of a clone, would be that, chances are it would work fine on the PC-10 mainboard.
Re-Engineering seems to be potentially a better option. The upfront cost maybe more. However, since new parts could be used. It could be cheaper in the actual production run. There would be no requirement to hunt down hundreds of used parts. Those parts could potentially be decades old or even be broken.
Additionally, that may mean that a board could be Fully Assembled by the off-shore manufacture. With the exception of the Eproms. Our main concern is that with so much updated, would it even work on the PC-10 mainboard.
Other concerns with re-engineering would be, do you stick with the vintage Rom Chips or find something that is currently mass produced. 1 of the 3 of us, believes that in keeping with making it unique from the original. We should change up the Eproms. I believe to make the Kit more versitle the original sockets for the Eproms should be kept.
An example of my reasoning. People already have access to reproduction chips, by designed, for the Eproms used on the orginal boards. Also, if someone has say a Duck Hunt or Castlevaina, and for what ever reason the PCB becomes danmaged. A replacement PCB would be potentially a cheaper alternative then buying Duck Hunt or Castlevania all overagain.
If we were to do this, the reality of it is, it could take up to 3 plus months to get to the prototype stage; If we do Re-Engineering it. Less then 2 months if we go the Clone route. We would then have to do alot of testing. Making sure that it works on every mainboard, original bios and Oliver`s hacked bios.
Now for the legality of this Idea. Start off, i`m not a lawyer. So far, as i`ve been able to understand the certain concepts of US and Canadian law. The cloning or coping of a pcb can bring the warth of the law onto you. Implying the original creators deems to hunt you down. However, seeing as the patents on these would have exprired around the same time as the Nes patents. This angle may no longer hold any weight, due to this type of information now belonging to the free domain. However, what is potentially even safer, is Re-Engineering. In the US, in its own right, this is a loop hole. Since it is electronicly identical, but not a copy. You are implied to be safe from legal action. Again not a lawyer.
Other considerations we have made. As we said before, we would like to make these PCBs very identifiyable. Currently, the practical ideas has been to simply change the colour of the pcbs from the standard green to blue. However, the other two, don`t like the optional colours of blue, red or black. They prefer the green.
Another possible option, is the silk screen. Distictly have it writen on there: Re-Engineered Version of PCH1-XX-ROM, etc. Also if its Re-Engineered, a collector will know its differnt from an original. The goal of making this distinction so in your face. Is to prevent someone from pawning off a reproduction pcb with say a Castlevania game chip and Id chip and trying to make a major profit. This being the morality issue.
A concern some may have is the potential effect it would have on the market value. As a person who has collected everything from Lego, Video Games and Transformers. I can say that reproductions or in the case of transformers Ko`s, there is little to no effect on the original`s market value. Examples of $ values changing due to reproduction. Vintage Games becoming avaliable for download, FF7 BL PS1 went from being $120 to $70. Lego SW Set Reissue, $70 set that was Valued at $100 returns to $60-70. But these are exceptions. Other examples would be the many Snes titles that have been released on the Nintendo Virtual console. As there original cartridge format have risen in price over the past 3 years. Or atleast locally.
Another response to calm any fears. Since our perception is, that the market for the Re-Engineered PCB`s would be very limited. Being as limited as it is intcipated, so would the production run. The Idea is to produce a maximum of 100 per board type. Of which 20 to 30 of the 100 would be split between the 3 of us. The other 70 to 80 would then be put up for sale.
If however, for what ever reason we actually sell out of that 70 to 80 of said board type. There would be a consideration to doing another production run. Obviously, the demand and production run size would be a factor. We would also change the PCB colour from say blue to red. I know this sounds silly, but there are people that like to say that they are in the first group to have something. A colour variant would allow this.
Now to digress, our goal is more to supply our selves with the game PCB`s we don`t have. For the custom games we would like to do.
As we see it. The first 100, allows us to have the boards we want. As well as potentially create the funds to do additional runs of the other PC-10 Game PCB`s. With the hope that the surplus of each pervious board will eventually allow for the next.
With this financial model. We have estimated, it could take us as little as 1 year or upto 3 and a half years to do every single board design. Based on a minimum of a 3-4 month turn around. That includes everything from Re-Engineering to Prototype(testing) to Production Run. Then selling them to generate the funds for the next 1 or 2 production run. As stated perviously, each run is dependent on the sale of the pervious.
Pre-Orders: This project is something that the 3 of us are intrested in doing. Pooling our money together. However, We have *NO* desire to do pre-orders. As we are doing this for ourselves first. If others can enjoy what we are doing, that is hopefully something we can do too.
We hope to have a End Product that requires little more then installing of the Game Chip Sets and Name Id Chip. As not everyone would have the skill set to do anything more then the install. As well as, a product that is financially more accessible. Especially for those wishing to do any number of potential mods.
To further and reinterate the intent. This Idea is not to provide software, but the hardware. In order to provide an alternative to destroying or altering the existing original game PCBs.
I say Idea, because untill we have a working prototype, that is all it is, an Idea.
So to conclude. Is anyone actually intrested in this type of project. Or should the 3 of us just consider doing smaller runs to meet our own demand.
Edit:
One practical issue I see with the entire concept, is the need for it, other then from the 3 of us. The primary purpose of this is to have the ablity to put nes games on them. With that said, there is already a viable functioning alternative which is 2600`s Nes to PC-10 adapter. Which is already being produced and shown to work. I`ve personally have purchased and am awaiting paitently for its arrival. This would allow for someone to play there existing Nes collection for less then what it would take to have the roms burned. The only thing my project hopes to do is give a fair to moderate feeling of originality. If I can get it to work on the original bios. If not a PowerPak and the Nes to PC-10 adapter with Olivers Bios will do wounders. I have to say this due to, In all fairness I have to converse anything that will knock my own Idea. Its the only way to make sure this project is worth doing in the first place.
_________________________________________________________
"EDIT SEPT 27th 2012"
I've been informed that the prototypes will be arriving for testing shortly; for the PCH1-02-ROM.
_________________________________________________________
This post is a product of several days of conversation with other Local PC-10 owners. 3 of us to be more percise.
We were discussing the problem of sacrificing vintage PC-10 Game PCB's to convert them into something else. Either it be another PC-10 game; or just one of the main possible nes games that will work on the PC-10.
Then we evaluated the praticality and legality of Cloning, Coping or Re-Engineering the Game PCB. Sorta a grey area in both instances. As well as a morality issue. I'll start off with praticallity.
Cloning or Coping at our level would be very time consuming. As this would be a side project between life work etc. One of us, has already spent a day researching for the original parts required for PCH1-01-ROM. Then there would be the cost of having some off-shore company to print the PCBs. After that, there are two options, sell as a kit unassembled or assemble it our selves. With atleast 20 mins of soldering per board. Cost and time just go through the roof.
One of several issues here is that the PCB would be very similar to the original. If we were to do this, we would want the Cloned PCB`s to have a very distungishable appearence. If sold as a kit, we would have to test all the used chips ect. Again leading into that same time consumption. Potential benefits of a clone, would be that, chances are it would work fine on the PC-10 mainboard.
Re-Engineering seems to be potentially a better option. The upfront cost maybe more. However, since new parts could be used. It could be cheaper in the actual production run. There would be no requirement to hunt down hundreds of used parts. Those parts could potentially be decades old or even be broken.
Additionally, that may mean that a board could be Fully Assembled by the off-shore manufacture. With the exception of the Eproms. Our main concern is that with so much updated, would it even work on the PC-10 mainboard.
Other concerns with re-engineering would be, do you stick with the vintage Rom Chips or find something that is currently mass produced. 1 of the 3 of us, believes that in keeping with making it unique from the original. We should change up the Eproms. I believe to make the Kit more versitle the original sockets for the Eproms should be kept.
An example of my reasoning. People already have access to reproduction chips, by designed, for the Eproms used on the orginal boards. Also, if someone has say a Duck Hunt or Castlevaina, and for what ever reason the PCB becomes danmaged. A replacement PCB would be potentially a cheaper alternative then buying Duck Hunt or Castlevania all overagain.
If we were to do this, the reality of it is, it could take up to 3 plus months to get to the prototype stage; If we do Re-Engineering it. Less then 2 months if we go the Clone route. We would then have to do alot of testing. Making sure that it works on every mainboard, original bios and Oliver`s hacked bios.
Now for the legality of this Idea. Start off, i`m not a lawyer. So far, as i`ve been able to understand the certain concepts of US and Canadian law. The cloning or coping of a pcb can bring the warth of the law onto you. Implying the original creators deems to hunt you down. However, seeing as the patents on these would have exprired around the same time as the Nes patents. This angle may no longer hold any weight, due to this type of information now belonging to the free domain. However, what is potentially even safer, is Re-Engineering. In the US, in its own right, this is a loop hole. Since it is electronicly identical, but not a copy. You are implied to be safe from legal action. Again not a lawyer.
Other considerations we have made. As we said before, we would like to make these PCBs very identifiyable. Currently, the practical ideas has been to simply change the colour of the pcbs from the standard green to blue. However, the other two, don`t like the optional colours of blue, red or black. They prefer the green.
Another possible option, is the silk screen. Distictly have it writen on there: Re-Engineered Version of PCH1-XX-ROM, etc. Also if its Re-Engineered, a collector will know its differnt from an original. The goal of making this distinction so in your face. Is to prevent someone from pawning off a reproduction pcb with say a Castlevania game chip and Id chip and trying to make a major profit. This being the morality issue.
A concern some may have is the potential effect it would have on the market value. As a person who has collected everything from Lego, Video Games and Transformers. I can say that reproductions or in the case of transformers Ko`s, there is little to no effect on the original`s market value. Examples of $ values changing due to reproduction. Vintage Games becoming avaliable for download, FF7 BL PS1 went from being $120 to $70. Lego SW Set Reissue, $70 set that was Valued at $100 returns to $60-70. But these are exceptions. Other examples would be the many Snes titles that have been released on the Nintendo Virtual console. As there original cartridge format have risen in price over the past 3 years. Or atleast locally.
Another response to calm any fears. Since our perception is, that the market for the Re-Engineered PCB`s would be very limited. Being as limited as it is intcipated, so would the production run. The Idea is to produce a maximum of 100 per board type. Of which 20 to 30 of the 100 would be split between the 3 of us. The other 70 to 80 would then be put up for sale.
If however, for what ever reason we actually sell out of that 70 to 80 of said board type. There would be a consideration to doing another production run. Obviously, the demand and production run size would be a factor. We would also change the PCB colour from say blue to red. I know this sounds silly, but there are people that like to say that they are in the first group to have something. A colour variant would allow this.
Now to digress, our goal is more to supply our selves with the game PCB`s we don`t have. For the custom games we would like to do.
As we see it. The first 100, allows us to have the boards we want. As well as potentially create the funds to do additional runs of the other PC-10 Game PCB`s. With the hope that the surplus of each pervious board will eventually allow for the next.
With this financial model. We have estimated, it could take us as little as 1 year or upto 3 and a half years to do every single board design. Based on a minimum of a 3-4 month turn around. That includes everything from Re-Engineering to Prototype(testing) to Production Run. Then selling them to generate the funds for the next 1 or 2 production run. As stated perviously, each run is dependent on the sale of the pervious.
Pre-Orders: This project is something that the 3 of us are intrested in doing. Pooling our money together. However, We have *NO* desire to do pre-orders. As we are doing this for ourselves first. If others can enjoy what we are doing, that is hopefully something we can do too.
We hope to have a End Product that requires little more then installing of the Game Chip Sets and Name Id Chip. As not everyone would have the skill set to do anything more then the install. As well as, a product that is financially more accessible. Especially for those wishing to do any number of potential mods.
To further and reinterate the intent. This Idea is not to provide software, but the hardware. In order to provide an alternative to destroying or altering the existing original game PCBs.
I say Idea, because untill we have a working prototype, that is all it is, an Idea.
So to conclude. Is anyone actually intrested in this type of project. Or should the 3 of us just consider doing smaller runs to meet our own demand.
Edit:
One practical issue I see with the entire concept, is the need for it, other then from the 3 of us. The primary purpose of this is to have the ablity to put nes games on them. With that said, there is already a viable functioning alternative which is 2600`s Nes to PC-10 adapter. Which is already being produced and shown to work. I`ve personally have purchased and am awaiting paitently for its arrival. This would allow for someone to play there existing Nes collection for less then what it would take to have the roms burned. The only thing my project hopes to do is give a fair to moderate feeling of originality. If I can get it to work on the original bios. If not a PowerPak and the Nes to PC-10 adapter with Olivers Bios will do wounders. I have to say this due to, In all fairness I have to converse anything that will knock my own Idea. Its the only way to make sure this project is worth doing in the first place.
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