PlayChoice 10 Game PCB Cloning/ Coping/ Re-Engineering

Gaetznes

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PlayChoice 10 Game PCB Cloning/ Coping/ Re-Engineering

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"EDIT SEPT 27th 2012"

I've been informed that the prototypes will be arriving for testing shortly; for the PCH1-02-ROM.
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This post is a product of several days of conversation with other Local PC-10 owners. 3 of us to be more percise.

We were discussing the problem of sacrificing vintage PC-10 Game PCB's to convert them into something else. Either it be another PC-10 game; or just one of the main possible nes games that will work on the PC-10.

Then we evaluated the praticality and legality of Cloning, Coping or Re-Engineering the Game PCB. Sorta a grey area in both instances. As well as a morality issue. I'll start off with praticallity.

Cloning or Coping at our level would be very time consuming. As this would be a side project between life work etc. One of us, has already spent a day researching for the original parts required for PCH1-01-ROM. Then there would be the cost of having some off-shore company to print the PCBs. After that, there are two options, sell as a kit unassembled or assemble it our selves. With atleast 20 mins of soldering per board. Cost and time just go through the roof.

One of several issues here is that the PCB would be very similar to the original. If we were to do this, we would want the Cloned PCB`s to have a very distungishable appearence. If sold as a kit, we would have to test all the used chips ect. Again leading into that same time consumption. Potential benefits of a clone, would be that, chances are it would work fine on the PC-10 mainboard.

Re-Engineering seems to be potentially a better option. The upfront cost maybe more. However, since new parts could be used. It could be cheaper in the actual production run. There would be no requirement to hunt down hundreds of used parts. Those parts could potentially be decades old or even be broken.

Additionally, that may mean that a board could be Fully Assembled by the off-shore manufacture. With the exception of the Eproms. Our main concern is that with so much updated, would it even work on the PC-10 mainboard.

Other concerns with re-engineering would be, do you stick with the vintage Rom Chips or find something that is currently mass produced. 1 of the 3 of us, believes that in keeping with making it unique from the original. We should change up the Eproms. I believe to make the Kit more versitle the original sockets for the Eproms should be kept.

An example of my reasoning. People already have access to reproduction chips, by designed, for the Eproms used on the orginal boards. Also, if someone has say a Duck Hunt or Castlevaina, and for what ever reason the PCB becomes danmaged. A replacement PCB would be potentially a cheaper alternative then buying Duck Hunt or Castlevania all overagain.

If we were to do this, the reality of it is, it could take up to 3 plus months to get to the prototype stage; If we do Re-Engineering it. Less then 2 months if we go the Clone route. We would then have to do alot of testing. Making sure that it works on every mainboard, original bios and Oliver`s hacked bios.

Now for the legality of this Idea. Start off, i`m not a lawyer. So far, as i`ve been able to understand the certain concepts of US and Canadian law. The cloning or coping of a pcb can bring the warth of the law onto you. Implying the original creators deems to hunt you down. However, seeing as the patents on these would have exprired around the same time as the Nes patents. This angle may no longer hold any weight, due to this type of information now belonging to the free domain. However, what is potentially even safer, is Re-Engineering. In the US, in its own right, this is a loop hole. Since it is electronicly identical, but not a copy. You are implied to be safe from legal action. Again not a lawyer.

Other considerations we have made. As we said before, we would like to make these PCBs very identifiyable. Currently, the practical ideas has been to simply change the colour of the pcbs from the standard green to blue. However, the other two, don`t like the optional colours of blue, red or black. They prefer the green.

Another possible option, is the silk screen. Distictly have it writen on there: Re-Engineered Version of PCH1-XX-ROM, etc. Also if its Re-Engineered, a collector will know its differnt from an original. The goal of making this distinction so in your face. Is to prevent someone from pawning off a reproduction pcb with say a Castlevania game chip and Id chip and trying to make a major profit. This being the morality issue.

A concern some may have is the potential effect it would have on the market value. As a person who has collected everything from Lego, Video Games and Transformers. I can say that reproductions or in the case of transformers Ko`s, there is little to no effect on the original`s market value. Examples of $ values changing due to reproduction. Vintage Games becoming avaliable for download, FF7 BL PS1 went from being $120 to $70. Lego SW Set Reissue, $70 set that was Valued at $100 returns to $60-70. But these are exceptions. Other examples would be the many Snes titles that have been released on the Nintendo Virtual console. As there original cartridge format have risen in price over the past 3 years. Or atleast locally.

Another response to calm any fears. Since our perception is, that the market for the Re-Engineered PCB`s would be very limited. Being as limited as it is intcipated, so would the production run. The Idea is to produce a maximum of 100 per board type. Of which 20 to 30 of the 100 would be split between the 3 of us. The other 70 to 80 would then be put up for sale.

If however, for what ever reason we actually sell out of that 70 to 80 of said board type. There would be a consideration to doing another production run. Obviously, the demand and production run size would be a factor. We would also change the PCB colour from say blue to red. I know this sounds silly, but there are people that like to say that they are in the first group to have something. A colour variant would allow this.

Now to digress, our goal is more to supply our selves with the game PCB`s we don`t have. For the custom games we would like to do.

As we see it. The first 100, allows us to have the boards we want. As well as potentially create the funds to do additional runs of the other PC-10 Game PCB`s. With the hope that the surplus of each pervious board will eventually allow for the next.

With this financial model. We have estimated, it could take us as little as 1 year or upto 3 and a half years to do every single board design. Based on a minimum of a 3-4 month turn around. That includes everything from Re-Engineering to Prototype(testing) to Production Run. Then selling them to generate the funds for the next 1 or 2 production run. As stated perviously, each run is dependent on the sale of the pervious.

Pre-Orders: This project is something that the 3 of us are intrested in doing. Pooling our money together. However, We have *NO* desire to do pre-orders. As we are doing this for ourselves first. If others can enjoy what we are doing, that is hopefully something we can do too.

We hope to have a End Product that requires little more then installing of the Game Chip Sets and Name Id Chip. As not everyone would have the skill set to do anything more then the install. As well as, a product that is financially more accessible. Especially for those wishing to do any number of potential mods.

To further and reinterate the intent. This Idea is not to provide software, but the hardware. In order to provide an alternative to destroying or altering the existing original game PCBs.

I say Idea, because untill we have a working prototype, that is all it is, an Idea.

So to conclude. Is anyone actually intrested in this type of project. Or should the 3 of us just consider doing smaller runs to meet our own demand.




Edit:

One practical issue I see with the entire concept, is the need for it, other then from the 3 of us. The primary purpose of this is to have the ablity to put nes games on them. With that said, there is already a viable functioning alternative which is 2600`s Nes to PC-10 adapter. Which is already being produced and shown to work. I`ve personally have purchased and am awaiting paitently for its arrival. This would allow for someone to play there existing Nes collection for less then what it would take to have the roms burned. The only thing my project hopes to do is give a fair to moderate feeling of originality. If I can get it to work on the original bios. If not a PowerPak and the Nes to PC-10 adapter with Olivers Bios will do wounders. I have to say this due to, In all fairness I have to converse anything that will knock my own Idea. Its the only way to make sure this project is worth doing in the first place.
 
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So how much would it cost me if you were to successfully make Ninja Gaiden 3 pcbs available?
 
I've seen this a few times on the boards already...

As an owner of 2 PC10 machines, At this point I'd rather:

1) Keep it all 100% original.
2) Get one of the NES pin converters that a board member just did or
3) buy an "ArcadeSD" type board that would plug into the machine itself and just have the ROMS for all 54 game on it and be selectable.
 
3) buy an "ArcadeSD" type board that would plug into the machine itself and just have the ROMS for all 54 game on it and be selectable.

This would be amazing!

Of course, it would make all of my PC-10 carts fairly worthless ... but I would still buy one.

Steve
MM
 
This would be amazing!

Of course, it would make all of my PC-10 carts fairly worthless ... but I would still buy one.

Steve
MM

Not the Super-Rare ones. I'm sure there'd still be a market for those.

In an Ideal world I'd love it so they resemble the filter boards so you could plug it right into an original cage and wiring, and have your original PCB behind it in the cage.
 
Goodness that is one long post!

Anyway, this has been discussed here in several other threads, one recently.

Really though 2600's NES cart adapter already does everything most people would want with your project idea and more.

Here is his adapter installed in my PC10:

 
Goodness that is one long post!

Anyway, this has been discussed here in several other threads, one recently.

Really though 2600's NES cart adapter already does everything most people would want with your project idea and more.

Here is his adapter installed in my PC10:


^^^this^^^
 
So how much would it cost me if you were to successfully make Ninja Gaiden 3 pcbs available?

Below is a long winded answer to your question. Basically, I got no concert price on a full assembled PCB. However, I will try to answer to my best ablity. As if I were to be selling just Clone/Copy the PCB Kits.

Just to remind people, Seriously at this point its just all talk. We are still trying to find a company that does re-engineering for on the cheap, like in the hundreds. Most sites i've been to are looking for 2-3g's minimum. Were not even talking about fabricating the pcb or assembly.

If thats the case, I may have to find a place that does PCB scans, or work it out on CAD our selves. If we do that, were going the Kit route. I will not be using 2 decade old used parts. So this project maybe hualted if a source of New chips can't be found. So far i've found Most of everything we need for the PCH1-01-ROM PCB.

There are still many things for us to consider.

For the PCH1-01-ROM, this is what i've figured out sofar:
The kit, providing the PCB and 96pin 3 row right angle pin connector. Plus all your Caps (New). As it stands around 20-25 Shipped Snail Mail, as high as $35 with Tracking and Insurance. I just need to find a good source of New Resistors, New sockets etc. It may push up as high as 2 or 3 dollars more for the kit.

For larger PCB's like the PCH1-02-ROM-B, I can't see it being much more. Again relying on finding New Chips. If I can find them for under $1 each. It maybe as high as $5 more then the PCH1-01-ROM.

So worst case I'm thinking before shipping, a PCB with everything you need to assemble would cost $30-35 for the larger boards. I'm hoping I can do better then that, but I still need to do some looking around. For the larger boards, I want to keep it below $50 with Tracking and Insurance and under $40 with snail mail.

The main goal is to find away to get it all below $30 shipped snail mail. As anything over that, you might aswell just buy the original board and start moding it instead. As most good games start at the $50 range and up Shipped.

Once again, I havn't found everything needed for everyboard, So each PCB Kit may have a differnt price. These are just estimates on prices. It could be less, It could be more. But if its more, it probly wont be worth doing for most people.

I'm not sure about other people, but I'm a fan of sockets. So any chip I can, I will provided a socket in the kit. Implying it does push it over that Cheaper Target Price.

So in the case of the Ninja Gaiden 3 PCB board, which is a PCH1-01-ROM-G. It has a MMC 44 pin chip, 11 pins to a side. So far I've only found 1 source for New Chips of this Design. But have yet to get a price.

So many things to consider.

I do understand the purist out there. But my main reasoning for doing this isn't to make huge money or cut at the market value. Its for the hobbiest, the modders, the person that wants to resurrect those roms that are on a bad board. If anything to give them an alternative to altering or destroying a genuine PC-10 game PCB. More over, if your already willing to mod your PC-10 with Oliver's Bios, there is a chance you may like our idea. If not that cool to. Not everyone is going to jump on the wagon.

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Edit, So i'm not just filling this tread up with post:

In response to the post that were writen while I was writing mine:

I did not know that their was other people with similar thoughts or discussed this idea already. I had done many searchs for pc-10 pcb clone copy re-engineering and found nothing. It would be awesome if you could link me up to those treads. It would be intresting to see what other peoples ideas on the same subject were.

I've said it myself, most people will prefer to go with 2600's Nes to PC-10. It does do more then what my idea offers, this is ture. Worst case, we don't put out Idea into play. Alternativly we do, do it, but only for us, or we do it for us and everyone else. Its not the end of the world either way it goes lol.

Oh, yeah, i'm known for doing long post. If there is a lot of detail to be given, as I hate being vauge. It usally leads to confusion or a mis-understanding of my position. On the other hand it usally leads people to give up half way throu the post. Ending in the same result.
 
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If you are interested and need help, I'm for hire on the PCB work.

That would be awesome. If and more likly when we need help, i'll contact you for your rates. Thanks.





On another development, i've found away to drive down the cost even more. Potentially under the $20, not shipped. However that requires we buy all the parts that would be used on all the versions of the boards at once. It is an opition. However, it maybe out of our combined ablity. As it involves spending several thousands of dollars. More then we would see on a return on the first production run on the first board.

I will continue to keep everyone posted.
 
To clarify for you guys this would probably be like NES repo carts without having to use "donor boards". Maybe something like those repo prototyping chips on retro usb...
 
Would be nice for you just to sell the blank pcb and hard to find ICs. Then let people source their own resistors/ caps/ Ic sockets, ect. Would make your labor much less without having to pack little packs or everything. And keep you from having to buy so many parts.
 
Ok, i've been able to Identify prity much everything on the boards, aswell as find a source for it. With one exception,(NEED YOUR HELP). If your looking at PCH1-01-ROM, their is no Identification serial or model number on U4. Under the Chip it clearly states 6 M. not sure if that has any significants.

So if I go with "delayed's" advice. Just go with the PCB and the IC's. No connector, sockets, resistors, capacitors, eproms, diodes etc.

Example:
PCH1-01-ROM PCB w/ the two ic for aprox $12.
PCH1-02-ROM-B PCB w/ the six ic for $15

If I do go this route. I will list a few sources for parts I have found. Just save some people some time.

We are hoping to start the process in late Aug/ early Sept. For a prototype of a PCH1-01-ROM. Implying we can find the time to do it up in CAD or convert it to Gerber and drill files.
 
I've been make a list of each board and the games that go with them. If anyone sees any mistakes, please let me know. Also, havn't been able to find out what board goes to RBI Baseball (NerdTendo, has supplied a pic of it being on a 01-ROM-G). Any help would be apperciated.

PCH1 Cart = # of Titles = Titles

PCH1-01-ROM = 10 = Ballon Fight, Baseball, Duck Hunt, ExciteBike, Golf, Hogan's Alley, Mario Bros, Tennis, Volleyball, Wild Gunman.
PCH1-01-ROM-A = 2 = Gradius, Track & Field.
PCH1-01-ROM-B = 3 = Rush'n Attack, Rygar, Trojan.
PCH1-01-ROM-C = 1 = The Goonies.
PCH1-01-ROM-D = 1 = Metroid.
PCH1-01-ROM-E = 1 = MT's Punch Out!!.
PCH1-01-ROM-F = 7 = Double Dragon, Fester's Quest, The Goonies2, Ninja Gaiden, R.C. Pro-Am, Tecmo Bowl, TMNT.
PCH1-01-ROM-G = 4 = Gauntlet, Shatterhand, SMB 2, SMB 3, RBI Baseball.
PCH1-01-ROM-H = 1 = Pinbot.
PCH1-01-ROM-I = 2 = Captain Skyhawk, Solar Jetman.
PCH1-01-ROM-K = 1 = Mario's Open Golf.

PCH1-02-ROM = 3 = 1942, Kung Fu, SMB.
PCH1-02-ROM-B = 4 = Castlevania, Contra, Double Dribble, Pro Wrestling.
PCH1-02-ROM-D = 1 = Rad Racer.
PCH1-02-ROM-F = 4 = Baseball Stars, Dr Mario, Yo! Noid, C&D Rescue Rangers.
PCH1-02-ROM-G = 5 = Power Blade, Rad Racer II, Rock'n Kats, Super C, World Cup. Soccer.

PCH1-03-ROM-G = 3 = Ninja Gaiden II, Ninja Gaiden III, TMNT II.

PCH1-04-ROM-G = 1 = Mega Man 3.
 
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I doubt you'll find a source for the custom parts (MMC1, MMC3), other than cannibalizing other boards. I do know of clones for both those chips, I've never tested the MMC1 one, but the MMC3 one is in a huge DIP-40 package and wouldn't fit very easily on a standard-sized Playchoice board. Of course, it's not too hard to develop clones of those chips on a CPLD.

I'll be making a board that could be compatible with the B and D-type boards (I'm not making reproductions, just a new board that would happen to be similar enough if configured for it). The mapper and the RP5H01 chip are both implemented in the CPLD.
 
Note worthy News: Were entering into the Prototype stage for PCH1-02-ROM.

I hope within the year, if all goes good, production will start.

Big thanks goes out to the Designer and all the positive comments from fellow Klov'ers. Without all of you, we wouldn't have gotten this far.
 
I've been make a list of each board and the games that go with them. If anyone sees any mistakes, please let me know. Also, havn't been able to find out what board goes to RBI Baseball. Any help would be apperciated.

This is the only picture I know of a cart that was R.B.I. Baseball at one point. From this I would assume the PCH1-01-ROM-G is the proper cart type.

IMG_4042.jpg
 
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