Got it! Thanks so much for all this. You've done a ton of work in a very short amount of time.
PinWiki, The New Place For Everything Pinball
- Thread starter Pinball Wizard
- Start date
Got it! Thanks so much for all this. You've done a ton of work in a very short amount of time.
Lindsey
Well-known member
Are you talking about moderating the forum or the wiki content? If you're talking about wiki content I would be willing to write and moderate the Bally/Stern repair guide. I already have a ton of unique content but I'm not interested in contributing if it's open for anyone to edit. I would suggest one or two moderators per section. There are a lot of well meaning people who will contribute bad information. I can virtually guarantee it.
I would also be willing to moderate other sections but I don't want to suck up a lot of my time and Bally/Stern is my main area of expertise.
If it's going to be a free for all in terms of edits and moderation I'll just keep posting to my little old site and let someone else steal my work and slap their name on it over at pinwiki
EDIT: I would also like to see people openly credited for the content they've contributed. Not only does it give them the credit they deserve but introduces individual accountability to the accuracy of the content. Allowing links to people's personal sites who have contributed content is also a nice idea. Everyone wins.
One last edit... if there are a group of RPG regulars who are already planning something like this I would suggest trying to get them on board right away. That will be the difference between success and failure (IMO). If we can get the most knowledgeable people to commit to one site then we'll have an awesome resource. If not... then not.
Also consider that pinrepair.com might become free again at any time. Has Clay even commented on all this?
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Tim N.
Member
Are you talking about moderating the forum or the wiki content? If you're talking about wiki content I would be willing to write and moderate the Bally/Stern repair guide. I already have a ton of unique content but I'm not interested in contributing if it's open for anyone to edit. I would suggest one or two moderators per section. There are a lot of well meaning people who will contribute bad information. I can virtually guarantee it.
I would also be willing to moderate other sections but I don't want to suck up a lot of my time and Bally/Stern is my main area of expertise.
If it's going to be a free for all in terms of edits and moderation I'll just keep posting to my little old site and let someone else steal my work and slap their name on it over at pinwiki
EDIT: I would also like to see people openly credited for the content they've contributed. Not only does it give them the credit they deserve but introduces individual accountability to the accuracy of the content. Allowing links to people's personal sites who have contributed content is also a nice idea. Everyone wins.
One last edit... if there are a group of RPG regulars who are already planning something like this I would suggest trying to get them on board right away. That will be the difference between success and failure (IMO). If we can get the most knowledgeable people to commit to one site then we'll have an awesome resource. If not... then not.
Also consider that pinrepair.com might become free again at any time. Has Clay even commented on all this?
I don't think they are going to be on board with the wiki (only speaking for myself). I have offered services to Mario and we will see where that goes. Talking to Mario and some of the people on board with his project, I think it will be worth the wait once its up and running.
No offense to the wiki, but while it can be a great resource for repair (and I am sure it wll be), having all of these contributers from all over is going to be a tough read for one clear, articulated message.
I think the wiki could be a good supplement to a clear and concise repair guide (which Clays site is/was).
But replacing a clear concise repair (bible essentially) site, with a thrown together open source hodge-podge of utilities (mediawiki, phpbb) really doesn't show an investment of focus on actually replacing what was such an amazing demonstration of experience and time.
I am sure I will get slammed for this post, but so be it.... When I read stuff like "heavy lifting is done".... When essentially it is 30-60 minutes worth of installations/configurations, with a "come fill my site with data", it sort of seems like a slap in the face to Clay to proclaim you have "replaced" pinrepair.com.....
OP
OP
Pinball Wizard
Well-known member
I, as owner of the website, won't slap you in the face for your comments, but I can't speak for others on here. I do agree that saying "replaced" was probably not choice words. I personally don't think Clay's guides are coming back to pinrepair.com anytime soon, and I think with proper moderation, over time the wiki will become better then Clay's guides, again, over time. Clay has done wonderful work for the pinball hobby, but I saw a need to fill and I saw this as the best way to approach it. Mario is currently wanting to play the waiting game to see how things settle, and I think that is a good idea on some aspects, but I don't think pinrepair.com is coming back so I decided to jump while the iron is hot, so to speak, and use that as a way to quickly attempt to build up new repair guides. I don't except to be better than pinrepair.com overnight, but in due time I think it will evolve to become better.
This isn't a slap in the face. Just clarification. This is what I stated:
You know he's spent a lot more than 60 minutes to get this going.
I also don't see anyone anywhere saying the wiki has now replaced Clay's site.
Having a single maintainer like Clay's site has its advantages. We've also recently seen its disadvantages. A wiki may not have all the advantages of a single maintained site, but it also doesn't have the disadvantages.
I'll put a smilie here to show that I'm not pissed, angry, or attempting to slap anyone.
Edit: Ahhh, I see you were referring to the title at RGP regarding the "replacement". I was looking at this thread.
You know he's spent a lot more than 60 minutes to get this going.
I also don't see anyone anywhere saying the wiki has now replaced Clay's site.
Having a single maintainer like Clay's site has its advantages. We've also recently seen its disadvantages. A wiki may not have all the advantages of a single maintained site, but it also doesn't have the disadvantages.
I'll put a smilie here to show that I'm not pissed, angry, or attempting to slap anyone.
Edit: Ahhh, I see you were referring to the title at RGP regarding the "replacement". I was looking at this thread.
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Tim N.
Member
This isn't a slap in the face. Just clarification. This is what I stated:
You know he's spent a lot more than 60 minutes to get this going.
I also don't see anyone anywhere saying the wiki has now replaced Clay's site.
Having a single maintainer like Clay's site has its advantages. We've also recently seen its disadvantages. A wiki may not have all the advantages of a single maintained site, but it also doesn't have the disadvantages.
I'll put a smilie here to show that I'm not pissed, angry, or attempting to slap anyone.
Edit: Ahhh, I see you were referring to the title at RGP regarding the "replacement". I was looking at this thread.
It's all good, trust me..... Anything to promote pinball in a positive light is a good thing regardless.
Yeah, I was referring to the RGP post (where I first saw this). I am all for moving forward and progressing the hobby. I am also all for respecting history and what has been done to get us to where we are at now. When you have an opportunity to work with those who built what is there now (Mario and others), and let them decide what they want to do, and then offer support where you can, you take that opportunity. They are the ones that are going to drive the quality of the site.
"Striking while the iron is hot" is not in the spirit of what they want to do. I believe you will see a product of their offerings, regardless of what Clay decides to do.
Again, having a Wiki is a good thing, but proclaiming it the "Replacement Pinrepair" two days after pinrepair was taken offline, is a bit pre-mature....
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Pinball Wizard
Well-known member
Again, if I could retract that I would, Those were not the words I should have used, and feel bad about that.
JahBarron
Active member
This is looking good. Well, at least the section I care most about (Bally/Stern 77-85). Thanks!
I think the wiki can replace the repair guides eventually, although it will involve a lot of effort by many (sadly, with some of this effort merely being duplicative of what was done before!). It needn't be a mish-mash, and over time, with editing, it can be as coherent and cohesive as the pinrepair guides were. Without being subject to control of one person. I hope this is what evolves out of the present mess!
quses
Member
Unfortunately I feel the same way. There's tremendous potential for mischief when you have a bunch of different people hacking away on a page that tells people how to probe for votages and wiring on sensitive electronic components.
We all know there are some factions of the pinball community that can pull some really nasty and mean-spirited things. I imagine it wouldn't be long before somebody starts seeding the Wiki with bad advice, nor can you roll your own at the same quality level in a short time.
One reason why Clay's guides were so valuable is because he had a reputation and he spent years improving his resources and information. I don't think a Wiki will be able to come close to that unless it's moderated with an iron fist by people who can come close to dedicating the necessary amount of time.
This is the crux of why I'm defending Clay. I think the real value to the community is Clay, not his guides. You can copy material, but you can't make someone dedicate 10+ years to creating an invaluable help database.
Any new posted info (wiki) should go into a Que and reviewed by someone before being posted. I hope Pinrepair eventually re-appears but having another stand alone site of equal or perhaps better content in the long term would be a huge plus.
quses
Member
Pinrepair is not disappearing. That I am pretty certain of.
The way MediaWiki works however, is changes are published to the active site. There is no "approval queue". There is however, the ability to roll-back changes. But the operative thing is, how do you check the changes? What if someone edits a page and says "to test put your meter on pin 3 of J102 and the other end on ground" Who's going to determine whether that's valid?
kencinder
New member
Are there no "mods" for the Wiki engine, to allow for "Comfirmed/validated by:"(Or any input mod, where the lang text could simply be altered to achieve this)?
Not related, but if Torrent sites can have this kind of thing, why couldn't a Wiki? I'd bet someone's already done such a mod...
If multiple registered members "Confirm" a Wiki edit/addition, it can be safe to say it stays...and you can safely follow it. Anything NOT confirmed by at least 1 other member, should say "Unconfirmed".
quses
Member
I don't know of any mod to confirm things. MW does have a "patrol" feature where articles are marked "un-patrolled" until they are looked at by a mod, who then marks them as "patrolled".
There are a number of essential wiki mods that I think are necessary if you don't lock the database down. There are bots out there that will rapid-fire edit and spam pages. I run a few MW instances and I have an array of hacks to keep them under control, including using the Tor exit node list as a feed for an IP-based blacklist.
btw, I recently helped Craigslist deal with a similar problem. I gave them code on how to block TOR proxies from flagging ads. Nefarious people were using TOR to make CL ads go away. They're now aware of it and working to blacklist people doing that.
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Pinball Wizard
Well-known member
Currently I patrol edits myself, and have a few people I highly trust about to become moderators and help keep track. Not a perfect method but it is getting monitored to some extent. I am working on getting some wiki mods installed so that it runs a little more smoothly and safely. I am working on doing my best but I have been busy, it is getting there slowly.
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quses
Member
One way to get around the limitation of an approval queue might be to lock down the main pages and allow submissions and mods to be placed on the talk pages, then if approved you can cut-and-paste the content into the main page.
OP
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Pinball Wizard
Well-known member
I was thinking about doing that once I'm set up with some more moderators and the articles get more written.
supadave1
Member
I'm interested in the site.. I have some repair logs that I intend to add..
Lindsey
Well-known member
Why let people put in bad information and then fix it later? It's great for the site to grown but growing it with bad information is counterproductive. There should be moderators of the content who actually know what they're doing right from the start. Otherwise it will be a farce. Being able to create an account without even an email confirmation and edit the content does not make for a good repair guide. I already see content that should be removed. I think the lack of moderation is probably keeping people from contributing. I know it is in my case.
I think there is a general misunderstand about what a Wiki is. Wikis are generally open source and not owned by a single entity. If pinwiki.com disappears, the way it is currently licensed, someone else can recreate it in a few hours with no legal issues or copyright concerns. Everyone can contribute (in this case you need to be registered). Yes, this means you can get bad information. If you see something wrong, fix it.
If disputes arise about what is right or wrong, moderators can make the final decision. Or people discuss the disagreement and decide on what is acceptable. Talk pages are used for this. Sometimes it is put up for vote.
Pinwiki doesn't allow edits until someone is registered. And registration requires email confirmation.
Many people moderate recent changes for trolls and revert vandalism. There is software that detects vandalism. And as I said above, if you see vandalism it is very simple to revert it. You can fix it yourself. Trolls can be blocked. Sock puppets can be detected and deleted.
Is this perfect? No.
Is it different than a single maintained site? Yes.
Which is better? The answer to that is entirely subjective. It isn't for everyone. But take it for what it is, bad and good.
Everyone is worried about the bad when it comes to a Wiki. Well, we've also seen what happen with a single maintainer. That is not intended to be a slam against Clay, just a statement of fact. Neither method is perfect.
If disputes arise about what is right or wrong, moderators can make the final decision. Or people discuss the disagreement and decide on what is acceptable. Talk pages are used for this. Sometimes it is put up for vote.
Pinwiki doesn't allow edits until someone is registered. And registration requires email confirmation.
Many people moderate recent changes for trolls and revert vandalism. There is software that detects vandalism. And as I said above, if you see vandalism it is very simple to revert it. You can fix it yourself. Trolls can be blocked. Sock puppets can be detected and deleted.
Is this perfect? No.
Is it different than a single maintained site? Yes.
Which is better? The answer to that is entirely subjective. It isn't for everyone. But take it for what it is, bad and good.
Everyone is worried about the bad when it comes to a Wiki. Well, we've also seen what happen with a single maintainer. That is not intended to be a slam against Clay, just a statement of fact. Neither method is perfect.
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