Pin noob with some questions.....

sohchx

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Alright,I'm a vid guy at heart but am slowly venturing over into pin territory over the next few weeks so I have some questions that I wanted to ask you folks.

I have yet to get my hands on an actual machine to add to my collection so my expertise in terms of repair are non existent. I am a highly mechanically inclined person so I am willing to learn anything in terms of repairing these as I hate sending things out to be repaired.I have met a very nice gentleman that invited me to look at his inventory and I was pleased with what I saw but I just want to get some questions answered before I finally decide on what I am going to take.

Here are the pins I have to decide on.Is there anything I should look for in particular on any of these?

Sinbad SS (has a burned up diode on one of the boards)
Hulk (cold solder joints on one of the boards)
Sure Shot (works,shopped)
Space invaders (works,very rough play field at bottom center between the flippers)
Oklahoma (works,shopped)


When shopping for a pin what are the most important things to keep a look out for,or that I should avoid at all costs? The owner tells me that I should find someone profficient in airbrushing to retouch the playfield on the SI,true or false? Also when re-clearing a playfield is taking it to an autobody shop an option,I mean,do they have the correct type of clear to do the job and what should I ask for?
 
Only been in a couple of years, so I hope others will chime in if they feel the need....

When shopping for a pin what are the most important things to keep a look out for,or that I should avoid at all costs? The owner tells me that I should find someone profficient in airbrushing to retouch the playfield on the SI,true or false? Also when re-clearing a playfield is taking it to an autobody shop an option,I mean,do they have the correct type of clear to do the job and what should I ask for?

Since you like to work on stuff yourself, I don't know that there's any single thing you should absolutely avoid. I think it's a good idea to get a fully working pin as your first, though.

As to the airbrushing, you wouldn't want to find someone UN-proficient in airbrushing to touch up your PF, would you? :D I don't understand the question. :) To touch-up or not touch-up is a personal preference. I personally would make that decision based on whether or not I want to keep the pin longterm, and how bad the damage is.

I've heard of people taking their PFs to autoshops and being happy, and of other people doing the same thing and not being happy with the results. If you have someone you trust, and can relay the importance of a clear, clean of blemishes, extremely level playing surface to them, I'd give it a shot. Otherwise, I'd look for someone with experience clearing pinball PFs.
 
Wish I had specific advice for any of those pins, but I don't. I know that SIs look pretty cool, but that's it. As long as they're complete, you have a good place to start....
 
An auto body shop would have the correct equipment, the question is more of the staff's abilities. It is kind of a crap shoot. They paint cars, not playfields. Do you want to be their guinea pig? If the price is right and it is a playfield you can stand to have messed up, then maybe the answer is yes. If you want to be sure it is done right, then you are better off sending it to a well known restorer.

The one thing to be very aware of an leery of is battery corrosion on the PCB. That can be difficult to repair and expensive. As for other things to avoid, it is so hard to say for sure. Some things that look like little issues turn into a big deal and vice versa. A lot of times you have to look at things the best you can and cross your fingers. But if you want an idea of general issues and what can go wrong, check out pinrepair.com. That will help give you an idea of what to look for.
 
Just some general advice:

Stick to Gottlieb, Williams, and Bally. Other machines can be hard to find parts and schematics for. Stern is ok after 1980 - some of the earlier stuff was a merger with chicago coin. Avoid chicago coin pins at all costs - they are not designed as well as others.

post 1980 - most people prefer Williams in general. Pre 1980, gottlieb is usually preferred (EM). This doesn't mean the other brands are bad, just that in general you will have a good game with those two brands.

Artwork is hard to repair. Price is usually dictated by the playfield, cabinet, and backglass. The electronics can usually be had for a few hundred dollars to replace everything in the backbox. The playfield, blackglass, etc can be a few hundred dollars or much, much more to replace depending on the pin. In general - you are better off getting a nice machine with problems than you are getting a rough machine with good electronics.

"Shopping" a pin can cost as little as $20 or as much as $100 (depending on if you just replace the rubbers, or the flippers, etc). I wouldn't hesitate to buy a non-shopped game over a shopped one. As far as clear coating the playfield - I've never done it myself. I find in home use pin playfields hold up fine with some cleaning and wax. As long as you wax it once a month, you probably won't play it enough to cause massive wear.

EM games can be great to start learning to fix pins. The nice thing is - they usually have everything you ever need in the game. You don't have to buy extra parts or replace transisors/resistors/caps/regulators/etc, and can fix most artwork issues/etc with a sharpie. They usually require some small cleaning maintenance and switch adjustments and are good to go. They can also usually be found for around $100, making them an affordable project. The bad thing is - when they don't get played regularly, they die on you (rusted step-switches, dirty contacts, etc).

Buy a surplus of brand new balls. Dirty pinballs can cause a lot of damage to your machines. Pinballs aren't expensive, and you might as well eliminate that problem when you 'shop' your pin out.

Pins can be intimidating at first, but there really isn't much to them once you delve into it. Pins do require more love/attention than videos do, however, so be prepared to always make small tweaks and have a switch/feature go out on you every so often.

If you have a pin in your collection - you will notice it get more playtime than your vids (in general) no matter what kind of pin it is. Having at least 1 in your collection is nice. I would recommend at minimum 2 pins for longevity, however. 1 pin by itself will tend to get boring, but having two gives you some variety and allows you to enjoy both of them much more.
 
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Quite a range there - 2 EM's that are shopped/working and 3 SS that probably have various issues.

First decision - EM or SS? That is going to narrow your field down. Two completely different beasts. EM's are going to be old school type work - wiring, schematics, switches, relays, etc. The SS machines are probably going to require you to get into circuit board level work at some point. Neither one is impossible to master - just a different mindset as to how to approach things, and different tools you might need to use.

On the Hulk & Sinbad - both Gottlieb System 1 machines - I guaranty you the problems are going to go deeper than the couple you stated. Not to say they are expensive problems or hard to fix...but if either of these machines haven't been brought up to speed in recent years, it's going to take some time. Again, not difficult or necessarily expensive - but time consuming to do it right. You will need to re-pin every connector in the back box before you even think of troubleshooting other problems. Doesn't cost much, but a pretty royal PITA. Power supplies will likely have issues if they haven't been rebuilt lately. The burned up diode on the Sinbad is most likely a symptom of another problem and you won't be able to just replace the diode and go. On the Hulk, if wiggling the connector makes it work some - it might be bad solder joints, but it's probably indicative of the horrible edge connectors the GTB used. Hence the need to repin every connector. These machines have a "semi-bad" rap because of several design flaws that Gottlieb built into them. Until you fix every one of these flaws, it is difficult to ensure reliability. But once you do...they are pretty stable. You should be able to purchase non-working Sys 1 games in the $150-$300 (tops) range...with the upper end being exclusive to nice cosmetic examples. Here's your bible for fixing these games:

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/index.htm

I don't know much about SI, but being an early SS you are going to run into the same type of problems. I think that is a wide body machine, which honestly don't have much love in the hobby. But some people think they are great, maybe you are one. Value is similar to above. here's your repair bible for that:

http://www.pinrepair.com/bally/index.htm

The EM's are a completely different animal. I started there, I fixed some, but I bored quickly.

What to look for in machines of this age?
#1 - are all the parts there? Including the playfield plastics and other parts? The computer boards on the SS machine are easy to replace, some other parts not so easy.
#2 - Cosmetic condition rules! I don't care if it works as long as it looks great. I'll make a fair offer. A crappy looking machine with playfield wear or backglass flaking - even if it works 100% - not that attractive to me or most others, unless it is a very rare title. Most folks, with a little effort, can diagnose and/or fix operational problems. That's usually not the case with excessive wear problems. I can read a website and figure out a mechanical/technical issue. I can't read a website and figure out how to become an artist. Maybe you are different.

Airbrush the playfield? Sure, if you know how to do it. Depending on the wear pattern, you'll probably never make it look "restored". Probably cost and arm and leg if you hire a "professional". That's why I steer away from excessive wear.

Autobody shop is a good candidate to cc your playfields, especially if you have access to one and can get it done for free. If you had to pay them to do it....well, I personally wouldn't for any of the machines in your list. It just ain't worth it.

this is all kind of generalized info, and there are always exceptions to any rules. Any one of these machines could be great first machines and you could learn alot from them. Please just don't overpay - just cuz it's a pinball machine doesn't mean it's worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

good luck, welcome to your new obsession. Hope this helps a little.
 
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Quite a range there - 2 EM's that are shopped/working and 3 SS that probably have various issues.

First decision - EM or SS? That is going to narrow your field down. Two completely different beasts. EM's are going to be old school type work - wiring, schematics, switches, relays, etc. The SS machines are probably going to require you to get into circuit board level work at some point. Neither one is impossible to master - just a different mindset as to how to approach things, and different tools you might need to use.

On the Hulk & Sinbad - both Gottlieb System 1 machines - I guaranty you the problems are going to go deeper than the couple you stated. Not to say they are expensive problems or hard to fix...but if either of these machines haven't been brought up to speed in recent years, it's going to take some time. Again, not difficult or necessarily expensive - but time consuming to do it right. You will need to re-pin every connector in the back box before you even think of troubleshooting other problems. Doesn't cost much, but a pretty royal PITA. Power supplies will likely have issues if they haven't been rebuilt lately. These machines have a "semi-bad" rap because of several design flaws that Gottlieb built into them. Until you fix every one of these flaws, it is difficult to ensure reliability. But once you do...they are pretty stable. You should be able to purchase non-working Sys 1 games in the $150-$300 (tops) range...with the upper end being exclusive to nice cosmetic examples. Here's your bible for fixing these games:

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/index.htm

I don't know much about SI, but being an early SS you are going to run into the same type of problems. I think that is a wide body machine, which honestly don't have much love in the hobby. But some people think they are great, maybe you are one. Value is similar to above. here's your repair bible for that:

http://www.pinrepair.com/bally/index.htm

The EM's are a completely different animal. I started there, I fixed some, but I bored quickly.

What to look for in machines of this age?
#1 - are all the parts there? Including the playfield plastics and other parts? The computer boards on the SS machine are easy to replace, some other parts not so easy.
#2 - Cosmetic condition rules! I don't care if it works as long as it looks great. I'll make a fair offer. A crappy looking machine with playfield wear or backglass flaking - even if it works 100% - not that attractive to me or most others, unless it is a very rare title. Most folks, with a little effort, can diagnose and/or fix operational problems. That's usually not the case with excessive wear problems. I can read a website and figure out a mechanical/technical issue. I can't read a website and figure out how to become an artist. Maybe you are different.

Airbrush the playfield? Sure, if you know how to do it. Depending on the wear pattern, you'll probably never make it look "restored". Probably cost and arm and leg if you hire a "professional". That's why I steer away from excessive wear.

Autobody shop is a good candidate to cc your playfields, especially if you have access to one and can get it done for free. If you had to pay them to do it....well, I personally wouldn't for any of the machines in your list. It just ain't worth it.

this is all kind of generalized info, and there are always exceptions to any rules. Any one of these machines could be great first machines and you could learn alot from them. Please just don't overpay - just cuz it's a pinball machine doesn't mean it's worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

good luck, welcome to your new obsession. Hope this helps a little.

I plan on getting one of each,Em and an SS and then train myself on the repairs/mechanics of both. I know circuit board repair extremely well and have done it as a proffession daily for 11 years so I'm good there.
 
That makes it easier then.

If it were my first machine, I'd get the best looking game (backglass, minimal playfield wear) that's available for the best price. Theme and "fun play" are also valid reasons to choose one over another, but in the lower end market sometimes you can't be too picky about those things. Heck, compared to no pins, even the worst pin is fun to play.
 
The one thing to be very aware of an leery of is battery corrosion on the PCB. That can be difficult to repair and expensive. As for other things to avoid, it is so hard to say for sure. Some things that look like little issues turn into a big deal and vice versa. A lot of times you have to look at things the best you can and cross your fingers. But if you want an idea of general issues and what can go wrong, check out pinrepair.com. That will help give you an idea of what to look for.

Good advice on the battery corrosion. A really bad example can be un-repairable, or too costly/time intensive to repair versus just buying a new one (figure 100-200ish). Doesn't make it something to avoid, just figure on the worst case scenario being you'll have to replace the entire board.
 
I would choose a game that looks good cosmetically with some parts issues, over a game that works fine and has playfield or artwork damage. It's a lot easier to repair a transistor or coil than re-paint a damaged playfield or a flaking backglass (in many cases).
 
Just to add - even if the game plays nice, I would recommend a flipper rebuild as part of the shopping process if you have the money to spare.

The flippers are the interface between the player and the game, and nothing is better than having full power flippers with a freshly waxed playfield. It is usually only about $20-30 to replace the flippers, and worth every penny in the long run.
 
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