jcasetnl
New member
This is one of probably five total posts on here and RGP that actually has something worth reading on this matter.
Pacific Pinball Museum just sent you a full refund
- Thread starter pinballDan
- Start date
This is one of probably five total posts on here and RGP that actually has something worth reading on this matter.
jeff412
New member
I just want the info. I don't care who has or doesn't have the rights to it. I gladly paid my $11. It was refunded today.
Jeff
Jeff
I was just starting with pinballs. That will be on hold now until another reliable info source comes up. I never would have gotten my Space Invaders anywhere near working without Pinrepair. Pinrepair saved a lot of pins from the dump...
Lindsey
Well-known member
There are plenty of other sources for information. You just have to look for them. This forum, for example, can prove to be a better resource than any canned repair guide. This is even more true of RGP.
All is not lost in pinball repair because pinrepair.com is unavailable. It sucks but it's far from the end of the world.
Yes and you've helped me as well with my SI. The all-in-one-place feature was the awesome part. These forums are great but on forums you need to ask a question and then wait rather than just read a specific section like on a site. Waiting sucks when you are engrossed in a project.
No shit! They sky is not falling, Chicken Littles'. What did we do 12-13 years ago before Clay built that site?
Edward
kencinder
New member
I don't know about you, but me...not own pins, cause I was still in high school!
Honestly.....RGP was around back then, there was other forums that have came and went.....
There was plenty of places to get help, and plenty of people offering help......all before pinrepair existed. The rub....you had to be patient. We've all been spoiled with instant gratification
We're all gonna have to re-check our "me first" attitudes........and relax a bit. Who knows, maybe we'll all learn something
Edward
And with what you saved from using the site, $10 is an issue?
I understand Lindsey's points about the info and the sourced material. I agree that it should not be "sold" without their permission, but I just don't understand all the mob mentality when something is taken away that was a courtesy to begin with. It seems to me like because it was there. people just expect it to always be there. God, it's like all the people at work crying because the PS3 server is down.
Yes, it was (and is) helpful. When I need to use it again, I will pay the "donation" to get the information, or just look it up somewhere else (it is available).
As others have said, the sky is not falling.
Chris
Agree with most of the comments here. Clay decided to take the manuals offline at the same time that the donation arrangement was put up. Without warning. But, for the most part, money is not the issue. The 2 main issues that people are complaining about are:
1) The contributors to the site submitted write-ups, info, photos, etc. to be added to the repair guides with the express intent that they be freely available to everyone, online. (This intent was actually stated right on the front page of the repair guide index.)
2) While $10 is a bargain for the info, for sure, selling a DVD of the site as it existed on a particular day while taking the info offline hurts the purpose of the guides. First, it limits access, so when people post tech questions online they can't just be directed to the appropriate section of the guides for details. (This has happened a lot and is a good thing. I've done it myself.) Second, it kills off the updatable format of the guides. If it is sent out as a one-time DVD with no online maintenance, then most people will not contribute new material, corrections, etc. because it is not available to everyone and because there is no good way to get the updated info spread around without the website.
Seriously, nobody was really complaining that the info wasn't worth $10!!!!! I would send in $10 in a heartbeat for access to the website for personal use. (Heck, I contributed $10 to PPM after the fact anyway because I think they got caught up in this mess innocently, despite my earlier conclusion that they were part of the plan to pull the site down.) But not having the info available to all really impairs access by newcomers to the hobby. And free/open access really promotes the hobby by encouraging people to fix and salvage their pins. Many people put a lot of time and effort into preparing material for the guides, and are distressed that it is no longer freely available.
There was an understanding by all that the pinrepair manuals would remain available and free to all. (Heck, Clay wasn't even paying for the web hosting.) But then Clay (who is understandably PO'd about the TT fiasco!) decided unilaterally to pull the info down, to the dismay of many.
The only "crybabies" I see in all this mess are the few selfish individuals who complained that they paid their $10 and won't be getting a DVD, and blaming the contributors who objected to their material being pulled off the internet and sold. The BEST example that illustrates this is when one crybaby on rgp recently criticized a pinrepair contributor, saying that someone sent him a link to an archived version for free. The contributor responded: "Great! That's what we wanted all along! For the info to be available to everyone free of charge!" (not an exact quote, but that is the message from the key people involved.)
1) The contributors to the site submitted write-ups, info, photos, etc. to be added to the repair guides with the express intent that they be freely available to everyone, online. (This intent was actually stated right on the front page of the repair guide index.)
2) While $10 is a bargain for the info, for sure, selling a DVD of the site as it existed on a particular day while taking the info offline hurts the purpose of the guides. First, it limits access, so when people post tech questions online they can't just be directed to the appropriate section of the guides for details. (This has happened a lot and is a good thing. I've done it myself.) Second, it kills off the updatable format of the guides. If it is sent out as a one-time DVD with no online maintenance, then most people will not contribute new material, corrections, etc. because it is not available to everyone and because there is no good way to get the updated info spread around without the website.
Seriously, nobody was really complaining that the info wasn't worth $10!!!!! I would send in $10 in a heartbeat for access to the website for personal use. (Heck, I contributed $10 to PPM after the fact anyway because I think they got caught up in this mess innocently, despite my earlier conclusion that they were part of the plan to pull the site down.) But not having the info available to all really impairs access by newcomers to the hobby. And free/open access really promotes the hobby by encouraging people to fix and salvage their pins. Many people put a lot of time and effort into preparing material for the guides, and are distressed that it is no longer freely available.
There was an understanding by all that the pinrepair manuals would remain available and free to all. (Heck, Clay wasn't even paying for the web hosting.) But then Clay (who is understandably PO'd about the TT fiasco!) decided unilaterally to pull the info down, to the dismay of many.
The only "crybabies" I see in all this mess are the few selfish individuals who complained that they paid their $10 and won't be getting a DVD, and blaming the contributors who objected to their material being pulled off the internet and sold. The BEST example that illustrates this is when one crybaby on rgp recently criticized a pinrepair contributor, saying that someone sent him a link to an archived version for free. The contributor responded: "Great! That's what we wanted all along! For the info to be available to everyone free of charge!" (not an exact quote, but that is the message from the key people involved.)
I think many would be lining up if the guy simply charged $10.00 for access to the site. I think the biggest concern is the fact the site has gone away. People want access to the SITE not a DVD.
The convenience of being able to search through a site from anywhere with many different devices is what most will miss.
The fact that newbs coming to the hobby no longer have access to this vital resource is also something that is a bit of a slap in the face.
It's NEVER been about the ten lousy bucks. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't too keen.
quses
Member
I think that's very presumptuous of you.
I would argue it is his to do whatever he wants with it. He's always labeled his guides as being copyrighted with all rights reserved. I have a copy of his entire site that's about 2 years old and it clearly says at the top of almost every page:
If you want to bring a legal challenge against him, go for it. I think it would be a tremendous waste of time and money. He could easily claim "fair use" since it's an educational resource. He could also clearly demonstrate more than a decade of continuous work went into the production of those documents. Some people may have contributed snippets of content, but that in no way entitles them to dictate what he can do with the whole guide. That's wishful thinking. Good luck finding a lawyer that won't laugh you out of his office at the notion of pursuing such a frivolous lawsuit.
Anyway, all of this is moot because the guides are still available and he has not even exploited them in any for-profit manner.
If I were him, I would have turned the guides into a book a long time ago and sold it. Then maybe he could afford to open Tilttown right. He deserves it.
He'd have a hard time defending his copyright being he's never defended it before, he's not registered it (that I can find), and it was available in the public domain for years. His "work" has also been reproduced and distributed free of charge for many years from many places.
quses
Member
Where does it say he released his content in the "public domain?" On the documents he clearly says "all rights reserved". That's a legal term that supersedes some offhand comment on his page that says he intends to make the guides freely available. IANAL but my whole family are lawyers (my ex-wife was a lawyer, my father is a lawyer, my aunt is a patent attorney in the tech industry) and I'm pretty familiar with these things having been involved in various IP and copyright cases over the years. He can "intend" to do something and still retain the rights and at any point later, do something different. That's the whole point behind "all rights reserved" which has been listed on his site as far back as I can see.
Most of the conflict seems to be originating from select people with axes to grind, and a few who are making spurious claims over whether or not they can dictate what he can do with his site because they supposedly contributed to it. The whole charade is ridiculous in the first place. As far as I know, to date, Clay has not made a public statement about what he intends to do, so everyone is speculating all over the place. What we do know is that nobody comes close to him in terms of helping the community, and now that some of his resources appear to not be available on his site for free, people are all upset. People are overreacting in a big way. There's no indication the information will be permanently taken offline. And right now it is online on at least 2+ different sites.
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Lets stop with the whole "lawsuit" BS. No one is suing anyone. I could pull his entire site and re-post it somewhere else and he wouldn't lift a finger to "sue".
Bottom line is that he's actions thus far are "bad for pinball". I hope that changes.
PS: I recently read about what happened to Tilt Town.
THAT was some serious bullshit.
Bottom line is that he's actions thus far are "bad for pinball". I hope that changes.
PS: I recently read about what happened to Tilt Town.
THAT was some serious bullshit.
Agree on all points. And Quses, very little of what you posted about the site and copyright issues is accurate. Legal fallacies aside ("fair use" wouldn't apply here), you have no idea the extent of the material that was contributed by others to the manuals, NOT written by Clay, nor the implications of THEIR retaining rights to what they contributed.
Just because you post "all rights reserved" doesn't mean that you actually own those rights and can reserve them. In this case, MUCH of the content was either lifted/copied from other copyrighted material, or was indeed the work of others who retain copyright to their contributions, regardless of the statement on the webpage.
But I have real work to do now, and I doubt you'd get it if I tried explaining it anyway. (And there's a big difference between being an IP lawyer and "having relatives who are lawyers.")
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quses
Member
Are you a copyright lawyer Steven? If not then you will forgive me if I'm not moved by your arbitrarily claim that your knowledge of these matters is superior.
The bottom line is, everyone is tired of all this blabbering about who owns what. Those that claim Clay has some of their "intellectual property" need to put up or shut up. If you're not one of those people, and you're arguing for them, it's a waste of time.
Personally, I hope Clay takes out any part that any of those whiners are claiming is theirs, even if there's some argument. He can fully-write the best guide on the planet with or without anyone else's contributions. He should do so, and I think he should sell it for-profit -- I would purchase it, and I bet 99% of the community would with no-questions-asked. The loud-mouthed complainers may seem like they're significant in number, but they're not. Then he can take all that money and put up a huge awesome arcade, and then refuse to let any of his haters ever set foot inside. That would be justice. What was done to him over Tiltown was a travesty.
Yes it was. It's unfortunate the guy is taking it out on the whole pinball community... the very same community he spent years helping/building.
One (or a few) douchebags pulling an asstastic stunt... and the guy knee-jerks like this?
Hmmm...
quses
Member
He wrote those guides (until someone proves otherwise and most everybody knows the truth despite what some are claiming). He can do what he wants with them. I love how everybody seems to think Clay is "doing something to them or the community."
Clay spent years working on those guides. He's been paying for the hosting for ten years. He doesn't "owe" anybody anything. It's the other way around now, and when he decides after ten years, he wants to get something out of it, he gets chastized for it? That's really out of line in my opinion.
By the way, the guides are not "gone." They're just gone from his site. Are you all suggesting he "must" host the guides himself at his own expense for the entire pinball community until the end of time? Seriously, think of what it is you're saying. Clay has not told anybody else they couldn't do anything with the content -- though he may have that right. So everybody is making a big deal out of nothing.
The irony is that most of the biggest complainers are the first ones to rail about the evils of entitlement, but that's exactly what they are, they think somehow it's their birthright to freely exploit decades of Clay's hard work and if he changes the status quo, he's somehow a bad guy.
