Pacific Pinball Museum just sent you a full refund

pinballDan

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"Pacific Pinball Museum just sent you a full refund of $11.00 USD for your purchase. If you have any questions about this refund, please contact Pacific Pinball Museum.

The refund will go to your PayPal account."



Any body else get there money back instead of Clays repair CD????
 
So they are now not accepting payments and refunding those they recieved? The repair guides are still not available so i wonder if all the crybabies complaining about paying ten bucks pissed the guy off and now he just takes them down?
Glennon
 
So they are now not accepting payments and refunding those they recieved? The repair guides are still not available so i wonder if all the crybabies complaining about paying ten bucks pissed the guy off and now he just takes them down?
Glennon


It was never about the 10 bucks and you have your story completely wrong..........
 
So they are now not accepting payments and refunding those they recieved? The repair guides are still not available so i wonder if all the crybabies complaining about paying ten bucks pissed the guy off and now he just takes them down?
Glennon

Well let's hope not.

I'm sure Clay knows how much we all appreciated everything he has done to help keep Pinball alive, it is obvious his love and passion for the game.

Any Ninga that makes it a goal to repair and take the time to document 500 repairs in a year in a way that was fun and entertaining to read is quite an accomplishment. If you stop and think about it, that is a averaging of 10 a week / 2 repairs a day in a 5 day work week, he loves what he is doing or wouldn't do it. I had my doubts he could do it when it got to be Christmas and he was about 30 short but then reached 500 by the end of the year...

I like most never took the time to thank him for his efforts, I had the opportunity last fall at Pinball EXPO but never walked up to him to say it directly.


Clay, THANK YOU, and I hope you find a way for all of us to continue enjoying your repair notes.
 
So they are now not accepting payments and refunding those they recieved? The repair guides are still not available so i wonder if all the crybabies complaining about paying ten bucks pissed the guy off and now he just takes them down?
Glennon

This. .
 

Yeah... or maybe they realized you can't just take a bunch of people's work that was produced to be freely available, put it all together and slap a price tag on it. Let alone all of the information that came straight from what can be assumed to be copyrighted manuals.

If the only pinball repair information you've read was on pinrepair.com I can see how you might assume that was all Clay's handy work. The truth is that it was a compendium of the work of many people. Some Clay's. Some not. Believe it or not people were doing a lot of that stuff BEFORE pinrepair.com even existed. Or the internet for that matter.

Clay deserves to be commended for creating and administering the repair guides. I've done so in many forum replies, email and in person. There have been a lot of comments since the guides were taken offline that are slaps in his face but the fact that they were taken offline without notice and sold is a slap in the face to ALL of the people who made those guides possible.
 
Yeah... or maybe they realized you can't just take a bunch of people's work that was produced to be freely available, put it all together and slap a price tag on it. Let alone all of the information that came straight from what can be assumed to be copyrighted manuals.

If the only pinball repair information you've read was on pinrepair.com I can see how you might assume that was all Clay's handy work. The truth is that it was a compendium of the work of many people. Some Clay's. Some not. Believe it or not people were doing a lot of that stuff BEFORE pinrepair.com even existed. Or the internet for that matter.

Clay deserves to be commended for creating and administering the repair guides. I've done so in many forum replies, email and in person. There have been a lot of comments since the guides were taken offline that are slaps in his face but the fact that they were taken offline without notice and sold is a slap in the face to ALL of the people who made those guides possible.
I understand what your saying and I really didn't have a full understanding what was involved with that site. He did take the time to compile all this information and to host on his website and for that I personaly wouldn't have a problem paying for, but if I were one of the people who contributed for free and he was making money off of it I might be upset. Seems that he was donating the money so it wasn't like he was using the money to buy a new sports car. What I have a problem with is the bunch of crybabies here and over at RGP That have nothing invested in that site ,but want to complain, call names and try and figure out clever ways around paying the ten bucks. Clay is probably mad and I can't say I blame him. He may have been better off just charging $10 to have membership to log on to his website and browse instead of selling CD's of something that may not be his to sell. None the less we still don't have access to the repair guides.
Glennon
 
I understand what your saying and I really didn't have a full understanding what was involved with that site. He did take the time to compile all this information and to host on his website and for that I personaly wouldn't have a problem paying for,

I've seen several people justify it with the "he compiled it" argument. Who gives a shit if he compiled it. It's still not his to sell. It was a really nice thing to do for the community and I've commended him for that time and time again.

but if I were one of the people who contributed for free and he was making money off of it I might be upset.

I don't see how it should be any different knowing that's the exact position others are finding themselves in. Specifically meaning they are having the information they developed for the community and intended to be free with a price tag slapped on it.

Seems that he was donating the money so it wasn't like he was using the money to buy a new sports car.

I think this is probably what Clay was thinking when he made the decision to do this. Thinking that it's okay because it's for "charity". Quite frankly, the recipient of the funds is totally irrelevant. The point is that it was not his stuff to sell in the first place and people who donated their hard work and time have been taken advantage of. I can see where people who have not contributed anything, not just to pinrepair, but the hobby in general, can't see a problem here but they're the people who will be hurt most by this.

What I have a problem with is the bunch of crybabies here and over at RGP That have nothing invested in that site ,but want to complain, call names and try and figure out clever ways around paying the ten bucks. Clay is probably mad and I can't say I blame him.

This is where you have a very valid point. Some people just want to take take take and contribute nothing. My point is that the information was not his to sell. People who are just pissed off because they don't get to leech of the hard work and generosity of others anymore can suck it. I don't need their help to fix my games. They need mine.

He may have been better off just charging $10 to have membership to log on to his website and browse instead of selling CD's of something that may not be his to sell. None the less we still don't have access to the repair guides.
Glennon

There is no "may not be his to sell". It's not even a question. There are huge sections that are NOT his to sell. Not only sections contributed by others but lots of sections that are straight out of manuals.

I understand where you're coming from and I think we're probably on the same page overall. No disrespect intended to any individual.
 
I've seen several people justify it with the "he compiled it" argument. Who gives a shit if he compiled it. It's still not his to sell. It was a really nice thing to do for the community and I've commended him for that time and time again.



I don't see how it should be any different knowing that's the exact position others are finding themselves in. Specifically meaning they are having the information they developed for the community and intended to be free with a price tag slapped on it.



I think this is probably what Clay was thinking when he made the decision to do this. Thinking that it's okay because it's for "charity". Quite frankly, the recipient of the funds is totally irrelevant. The point is that it was not his stuff to sell in the first place and people who donated their hard work and time have been taken advantage of. I can see where people who have not contributed anything, not just to pinrepair, but the hobby in general, can't see a problem here but they're the people who will be hurt most by this.



This is where you have a very valid point. Some people just want to take take take and contribute nothing. My point is that the information was not his to sell. People who are just pissed off because they don't get to leech of the hard work and generosity of others anymore can suck it. I don't need their help to fix my games. They need mine.



There is no "may not be his to sell". It's not even a question. There are huge sections that are NOT his to sell. Not only sections contributed by others but lots of sections that are straight out of manuals.

I understand where you're coming from and I think we're probably on the same page overall. No disrespect intended to any individual.

Lindsey It's refreshing to have a discussion without somebody gettig upset. What do you feel would be an acceptable soulutionto this situation? I'm curious without getting to far off topic what's your opinion on people who sell repro side art for arcade games that is copyrighted? Do you know if a site like Ipdb haspermission to host files of pinball manuals? I know they can no longer use Gottlieb because Steeve young owns that. Any in closing I guess my whole point was that some cheapskate crybabies are going to ruin it for everybody.
Glennon
 
Lindsey It's refreshing to have a discussion without somebody gettig upset. What do you feel would be an acceptable soulutionto this situation? I'm curious without getting to far off topic what's your opinion on people who sell repro side art for arcade games that is copyrighted? Do you know if a site like Ipdb haspermission to host files of pinball manuals? I know they can no longer use Gottlieb because Steeve young owns that. Any in closing I guess my whole point was that some cheapskate crybabies are going to ruin it for everybody.
Glennon

I can offer a bit more insight, if I may. I believe the IPDB does have permission, at least for much of the the WMS/BLY stuff there. (Was told this indirectly by someone who spoke with Planetary Pinball.)

As for the whole pinrepair mess, please be aware that the issue is not about a bunch of "cheapskate crybabies"! Yes, Clay has spend a huge amount of time and effort in organizing the repair info, and preparing much of it himself. Everyone I have seen is grateful for that effort, without question. It's really not about the money at all, so the "cheapskates" slur is uncalled-for.

The problem began, I believe, when someone got local authorities riled up about Clay's Tilt Town arcade (making false statements/allegations), which led to TT being shut down. Apparently in 'retaliation.' Clay decided to pull the repair website offline. (Note that he was not even paying for the web hosting; someone else was hosting the website and covering costs.) Along with this, Clay arranged with PPM to allow PPM to sell DVDs of the repair manuals, except that Clay did not have the rights to the material to allow this.

The two main issues in this fiasco are: 1) Several people prepared and contributed material to the manuals with the explicit intent that the info be made freely available to the pin community. These contributors objected to Clay's attempt to have this info available only by paying for the DVD. 2) Clay took the repair guides OFFLINE. People who contributed the info did so with the understanding that it would be freely available to all. The repair guides are constantly being updated. Accessing them online allows for such updates and instant access to the latest version. OTOH, issuing a DVD means that it is NO LONGER POSSIBLE to (a) easily access the info from any device with an internet connection; and (b) keep the info updated and current, and allow new info to be added easily.

It really isn't about the money. I would gladly pay $10 or more, or donate to a pinball organization, to keep the info online and updated. But Clay took that option off the table when he pulled the website. So, there is a new pinwiki being developed to publish the info online, and not have it remain solely under the control of a single quirky individual.

HTH!
 
Lindsey It's refreshing to have a discussion without somebody gettig upset. What do you feel would be an acceptable soulutionto this situation?

Right now it's tough to say what the best solution will be. I would like to see pinrepair.com back online and pretend that none of this ever happened. Seems pretty unlikely at this point.

My thoughts on how it should have been handled originally lean more towards a "donate" button on the site and Clay reminding people that this thing is free and it's time to give back. I don't think most content contributors would have had a problem with that but who knows... it's irrelevant now anyway. The whole thing is a big mess and I think it's going to get even worse with all these new "pinrepair" sites popping up. Inevitably, information is going to be "stolen" and reproduced even more now. People see an opportunity to be the new hero and jump on it.

I'm curious without getting to far off topic what's your opinion on people who sell repro side art for arcade games that is copyrighted?

The owners of that intellectual property have just as much right to complain as the people who's content was being "sold" on the pinrepair.com CDs. Most would argue that there is a difference between ripping off "the man" and "the community" but at the root of it all they're the same thing.

Do you know if a site like Ipdb haspermission to host files of pinball manuals? I know they can no longer use Gottlieb because Steeve young owns that.

Probably not. I assume they're allowed to slide because they're not selling anything. It's a service to "the community" more than anything. You can be sure that if they pulled IPDB.org and started selling dumps of the site on DVD people would be complaining even louder and C&D orders would be issued.

Any in closing I guess my whole point was that some cheapskate crybabies are going to ruin it for everybody.
Glennon

The "cheapskate crybabies" are a byproduct of it already being ruined for everybody. Not the cause.
 
Well regardless of whats going on, it sucks. Big time.

And after reading this thread, as usual, it sounds like babies on all sides of the fence are crying quite a bit.
 
I can offer a bit more insight, if I may. I believe the IPDB does have permission, at least for much of the the WMS/BLY stuff there. (Was told this indirectly by someone who spoke with Planetary Pinball.)

As for the whole pinrepair mess, please be aware that the issue is not about a bunch of "cheapskate crybabies"! Yes, Clay has spend a huge amount of time and effort in organizing the repair info, and preparing much of it himself. Everyone I have seen is grateful for that effort, without question. It's really not about the money at all, so the "cheapskates" slur is uncalled-for.

The problem began, I believe, when someone got local authorities riled up about Clay's Tilt Town arcade (making false statements/allegations), which led to TT being shut down. Apparently in 'retaliation.' Clay decided to pull the repair website offline. (Note that he was not even paying for the web hosting; someone else was hosting the website and covering costs.) Along with this, Clay arranged with PPM to allow PPM to sell DVDs of the repair manuals, except that Clay did not have the rights to the material to allow this.

The two main issues in this fiasco are: 1) Several people prepared and contributed material to the manuals with the explicit intent that the info be made freely available to the pin community. These contributors objected to Clay's attempt to have this info available only by paying for the DVD. 2) Clay took the repair guides OFFLINE. People who contributed the info did so with the understanding that it would be freely available to all. The repair guides are constantly being updated. Accessing them online allows for such updates and instant access to the latest version. OTOH, issuing a DVD means that it is NO LONGER POSSIBLE to (a) easily access the info from any device with an internet connection; and (b) keep the info updated and current, and allow new info to be added easily.

It really isn't about the money. I would gladly pay $10 or more, or donate to a pinball organization, to keep the info online and updated. But Clay took that option off the table when he pulled the website. So, there is a new pinwiki being developed to publish the info online, and not have it remain solely under the control of a single quirky individual.

HTH!
Lot more going on there than I was aware of ,but go over to RGP and even the other thread on it here and you'll see a bunch of people that contributed nothing whinning about having to pay or spending way to much time trying to figure out clever ways to get the info somehow and repost it somewhere. So I wouldn't exactly say it's uncalled for or a slur more of a fact.
 
I for one don't have the money for this hobby if I need to pay for every single board repair. I know nothing so fortunately for me this just might be the push I need to finally get out.
 
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