Original Namco Puckman PCB

I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but german manufacturer NSM made their own licensed Puck-Man boards, and I think they used those ribbon cables as well. But I think they had their logo printed on the PCB.
I sold an NSM Puck Man table years ago, but I don't think I have any pictures...

Fortunately, I also have an original NSM puckman (never modified):

- It is officially licensed, NSM mentions it everywhere
- The PCB has no NSM logo on it, it is identical to Namcos board
- It has the original Namco Custom chips (only possible with a license)
- Original NSM-Roms are in english / japanese language, absolutely identical to the original japanese version.
- Namco did not license a modified version.


However, it is not clear if the NSM board was delivered from Japan, or just the Custom Chips and NSM made the board itself (I think, the latter is the case, because of some minor differences in certain parts). I personally would not buy an NSM board as "authentic Namco Puckman PCB" for a high price, even if it is already much more legit, than the Bell Fruit one (see list above).

I understand, that many people are interested in having "legit" Puckman PCBs, but the facts are simply: Collectors only pay high prices for a Puckman PCB if it is 100% authentic and clear, that Namco made it. And most Puckman PCBs are totally fishy unfortunately.

Regards,
Ekki
 
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Thoughts on value? Genuine Namco Puckman PCB. Boots to a static screen. Complete and in nice condition. Can't see any previous sold prices.

*IF* it's a geniuine Namco board, it'd be worth a lot more with the original ROMs and original NVC284/285 chips instead of the (bootleg) replacement boards.
 
Original NSM Puck-Man here. Even the German Service manual shows the schematics for the 2 doughterboards. The capacitors have been changed.

IMG_20240315_193117.jpgIMG_20240315_193129.jpgIMG_20240315_193233.jpgIMG_20240315_193249.jpgIMG_20240315_193307.jpg

****EDIT: NSM Ms. Pac-Man (sorry) and it's in german.
IMG_20240315_194232.jpg
 
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Original NSM Puck-Man here. Even the German Service manual shows the schematics for the 2 doughterboards. The capacitors have been changed.
****EDIT: NSM Ms. Pac-Man (sorry) and it's in german.

i was gonna say! puck man copyright is 1979 (pacman was 1979-1980), thx for clarifying this is a ms pacman bootleg/clone!
 
i was gonna say! puck man copyright is 1979 (pacman was 1979-1980), thx for clarifying this is a ms pacman bootleg/clone!



It looks more like an original licensed Puckman PCB (it also has the original Namco custom chips), but some idiot obvioulsy broke the board in two halfs and some other messed with the original ROMs and replaced them with this strange hacked german version of Ms Pacman . Would be worth to revert back to original Puckman.
 
some other messed with the original ROMs and replaced them with this strange hacked german version of Ms Pacman

What makes you think that it is a hack that just "someone" did?
The pictures I posted of my NSM Puck Man cocktail show german text as well, and the PCB is clearly an NSM original (most likely the one that the table came with), you can see the green NSM sticker on there and it has no daughter cards. Operators back in the day surley would not bother one whit about the language. I guess that NSM, after the game took off, changed it to display german text. This kind of thing did not happen often, but it did happen (e.g. Bally Wulff translated Tron).
 
What makes you think that it is a hack that just "someone" did?
The pictures I posted of my NSM Puck Man cocktail show german text as well, and the PCB is clearly an NSM original (most likely the one that the table came with), you can see the green NSM sticker on there and it has no daughter cards. Operators back in the day surley would not bother one whit about the language. I guess that NSM, after the game took off, changed it to display german text. This kind of thing did not happen often, but it did happen (e.g. Bally Wulff translated Tron).


- These Roms shown above are not the original NSM Roms, which are all exactly alike and have original spare parts numbers on them (just like the boards, etc... "Deutsche Gründlichkeit"). This is not factory default.

- Original Board number was erased with an Edding and "MS Pacman" handwritten above.

- Visible NSM ET Numbers above are all Puckman spare part numbers

- NSM did not release a Ms Pacman nor did they have a license for that, especially not from Midway.

- The pictures you posted were also Ms Pac-Man (in a not matching NSM-Puckman table)


If you are a fan of "guesses": The most probable guess is that operators upgraded old outdated Puckmans to an actual Ms PacMan to raise profits again. The one above did probably not even use it in its original cabinet, which is why he broke the PCB in two halfs to make it fit.
 
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which are all exactly alike and have original spare parts numbers on them (just like the boards, etc... "Deutsche Gründlichkeit"). This is not factory default.

Right. Because every run of PCBs of any game from any manufacturer in the history of ever was EXACTLY the same from start to finish. :hmmmm2:

The pictures you posted were also Ms Pac-Man (in a not matching NSM-Puckman table)

You're right, I was mistaken, Entschuldigung. 🫠

If you are a fan of "guesses"

I guess I am. Because I can't know things for a fact that happened 40+ years ago behind some factory walls, unless I was there when they happend. So you worked for NSM back in the day (I guess)? That's cool, any more stories to share? Do you happen to know anything about NSMs infamous "Busy Bee" game? 🐝

and some other messed with the original ROMs and replaced them with this strange hacked german version of Ms Pacman

Given that fact that you are not a fan of "guesses", you clearly can name the guy who did it? Can't be too hard, I guess, given the fact that in the early 80s it was way harder to hack roms than today and not many people would even have the equipment to do it.

Anyway, what do I know, I am not a Pacspert. I guess. (I find the game even boring, but don't tell anyone) 🥴

:pacman: :blinky::clyde::luigi::pinky:
 
Anyway, what do I know, I am not a Pacspert. I guess. (I find the game even boring, but don't tell anyone) 🥴

:pacman: :blinky::clyde::luigi::pinky:

I dont know, why you react so defensive here. I did not want to provoke you.
You asked me, where one can see, that these are not the correct Roms, I gave you the straight answers. I actually did quite some research a couple years ago regarding Puckman (Namco & NSM) and my points are rather clear.

I thought in this forum the goal is, to find -facts- together regarding old Arcade games, not making wild assumptions, which fit in someones personal narrative.

If you have any proof of an original NSM - Ms Pacman cabinet just share it with us, that would be an amazing discovery, as its seems nowhere else this can be found, not even on KLOV. I definately would want to buy one! ;-)

Viele Grüße,
Ekki
 
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Thoughts on value? Genuine Namco Puckman PCB. Boots to a static screen. Complete and in nice condition. Can't see any previous sold prices.

Back to the original question....

For many weeks now... this "original Puckman PCB" is on ebay :

PUPCB.jpg

Seller states, that this is an original Puckman PCB and it sure looks like it. It also has the original Customs ICs, we were discussing earlier.
The seller seems to be very honest and mentions, that many of the parts on that board are refurbished. From what I can see, the ROMs are replaced, the original power section (upper right) was removed and some heatsinks are missing and the caps are redone (which i would consider a good thing).

Overall a trustworthy offer, he wants $499.- for it. Does not sound overpriced. And still, no collector bought it so far for this price (probably because of the modifications). This shows, how "picky" the Puckman collectors are.

Regards,
Ekki
 
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You asked me, where one can see, that these are not the correct Roms, I gave you the straight answers. I actually did quite some research a couple years ago regarding Puckman (Namco & NSM) and my points are rather clear.

I thought in this forum the goal is, to find -facts- together regarding old Arcade games, not making wild assumptions, which fit in someones personal narrative.

That's rich.. You blame me of making "wild assumptions" and you present your opinion as fact without presenting any proof.

At least I am not claiming to know the absolute truth, my "wild assumptions" are educated guesses on grounds of decades of experience in the hobby.

I am honestly curious how you assume (or know for a fact) that e.g. "all NSM Roms are exactly alike"? I claim that nobody can know this for sure unless they where there. Manufacturers have been known to change things up during production runs, due to technical improvements, chip shortages, time constraints, software bugs, etc.etc. And this is fact, no guessing or any wild assumptions. Look at all the Asteroids revisions, or Hyper Olympic/Track & Field, even Zaxxon has multiple board versions if I remember correctly (or wildly assume).

And I never claimed that a NSM MsPac existed.

Gee, I am getting the impression that Puck/Pac collectors are likewise bullheaded as certain parts of Neo Geo (AES) or pinball collectors (This is a guess, an assumption. It is my opinion, which is mine, and which belongs to me.)
 
Back to the original question....

For many weeks now... this "original Puckman PCB" is on ebay :

View attachment 729790

Seller states, that this is an original Puckman PCB and it sure looks like it. It also has the original Customs ICs, we were discussing earlier.
The seller seems to be very honest and mentions, that many of the parts on that board are refurbished. From what I can see, the ROMs are replaced, the original power section (upper right) was removed and some heatsinks are missing and the caps are redone (which i would consider a good thing).

Overall a trustworthy offer, he wants $499.- for it. Does not sound overpriced. And still, no collector bought it so far for this price (probably because of the modifications). This shows, how "picky" the Puckman collectors are.

Regards,
Ekki
I've seen that one but I see no namco branding, so I assumed it was a bootleg.

I do need one of these PCBs
 
That's rich.. You blame me of making "wild assumptions" and you present your opinion as fact without presenting any proof.

At least I am not claiming to know the absolute truth, my "wild assumptions" are educated guesses on grounds of decades of experience in the hobby.

You "guessed", that NSM translated Puckman to german language by presenting MS Pacman(!) screenshots, a game that NSM never released. This IS a rather wild assumption. And instead of acknowledging that, you keep up personal attacks. And I am the "bullhead" here ? funny.

And not knowing the difference between Ms Pacman and Puckman is very "educated" and "experienced" indeed. Keep up that good work! ;-)
 
You "guessed", that NSM translated Puckman to german language by presenting MS Pacman(!) screenshots, a game that NSM never released. This IS a rather wild assumption. And instead of acknowledging that, you keep up personal attacks. And I am the "bullhead" here ? funny.

And not knowing the difference between Ms Pacman and Puckman is very "educated" and "experienced" indeed. Keep up that good work! ;-)

Well yes, this was a stupid but honest mistake, and I already apologized for it. Those pictures were taken a long time ago, the game had always been in storage and was switched on once, for the purpose of taking those pictures and selling it. It may be possible that even back then I did not realize that it was Ms Pac Man instead of Puck Man, because I did not care.

But you act as you know absolutely everything about the subject matter without revealing any of your sources. You claim to have done research, but that is it.

For example:
But not with Namco Puckman, the 100% originals all have the Namco Custom Chips.

How do you back up this claim? Have you seen each and every Puckman PCB Namco ever made? Where you there when they were manufactured? It is not uncommon that manufactures switch to replacements when they run out of their cusotm chips (Konami boards are known for this). Just because no example is known does not mean anything.

The PCB has no NSM logo on it, it is identical to Namcos board

The board that Georgian posted has the NSM logo printed on it.

It has the original Namco Custom chips (only possible with a license)

Yes, one would think that custom chips would not be available for bootleggers, but there is an Atari Tetris bootleg PCB that has in fact 2 original Atari Pokey custom chips on it instead of the microcontroller (?) that most Tetris bootlegs use. That is weird, but it obviously is possible.
TetrisBoot2Pokeys.jpg

are not the original NSM Roms, which are all exactly alike and have original spare parts numbers on them

How do you back up this claim? Have you seen each and every Puck Man PCB that NSM ever made? Where you there when they were manufactured? Maybe there was a pre-production run where they had hand-written labels, or what if back in the day a label fell off and an operator replaced it with a handwritten one? Is it not an original board anymore?

There are so many factors which make it impossible to be a 100% sure on most things, especially about a manufacturing process that took place decades ago and took place behind factory walls. This was not a public, well documented event.
So I am curious how you can claim to know all this as facts.
 
Well yes, this was a stupid but honest mistake, and I already apologized for it. Those pictures were taken a long time ago, the game had always been in storage and was switched on once, for the purpose of taking those pictures and selling it. It may be possible that even back then I did not realize that it was Ms Pac Man instead of Puck Man, because I did not care.

That's ok, anyone makes mistakes, me too.
And since you seem to really discuss that matter objectively now, I will try my best also. ;-)


How do you back up this claim? Have you seen each and every Puckman PCB Namco ever made? Where you there when they were manufactured? It is not uncommon that manufactures switch to replacements when they run out of their cusotm chips (Konami boards are known for this). Just because no example is known does not mean anything.

Of course I have not seen all Puckman PCBs. But with this argument you can claim anything you want, without having to back it up. The argument "Everything is possible as long as no one can prove the contrary" does not mean anything either. You could claim "some Puckman PCBs were red" and if anyone objects you just come up with "That you have not seen a red one does not prove anything". See what I mean? ;-)

I think we can agree on this: If you want to sell an original Puckman PCB and want a collectors price for it, it has to be as original as possible including the original custom chips and ROMs. Otherwise it could be a bootleg (and as far as I know it is). Other experienced users also backed that already in this thread (look above).

Now it would be a different story if someone has original(!) Namco documentations of PCBs with daughter boards, like real service manual updates etc.. But so far, nobody has and all info you can dig up in Japan about the original Namco PCBs has the custom chips. With Midway that is another story, also with NSM: There you can actually find original factory documentation about the daughter boards, but from November / December 1980, so very late models. But then again, no collector is considering the NSM Puckman PCB as an original Namco one, although it is licensed.


Yes, one would think that custom chips would not be available for bootleggers, but there is an Atari Tetris bootleg PCB that has in fact 2 original Atari Pokey custom chips on it instead of the microcontroller (?) that most Tetris bootlegs use. That is weird, but it obviously is possible.

These boards are 40 to 50 years old and usually went through many hands, so many things are possible. Chips can be switched: I could also take a bootleg Namco PCB, pull the bootleg daughter boards out, put the original custom ICs from a (cheaper) Midway Pacman in it and say "Hey, look, this is an original Namco board"! And probably, most people would believe it. You are never safe when it comes to possible fraud.

So if your point here is to say "even if it looks legit, it does not have to be", I actually agree.


How do you back up this claim? Have you seen each and every Puck Man PCB that NSM ever made? Where you there when they were manufactured? Maybe there was a pre-production run where they had hand-written labels, or what if back in the day a label fell off and an operator replaced it with a handwritten one? Is it not an original board anymore?

Ok, I will try to explain what I meant. I did not mean to say, that all PCBs ever made have the same Eproms. But this is how an NSM puckman PCB looks like, when it is not tempered with at all. Of course I have seen not all of them, but many.

PM_NSM.jpg

The original Eproms are from the same series (on that board!) and have the spare parts numbers on them. NSM is a very correct manufacturer, when it comes to this. It is the same with their other products. Now compare this:

PM_BL.jpg

Do you really want to say, that this Rom rack, with different (and bigger) Eproms / wrong and replaced numbers all over the place, looks authentic to you and that NSM might have delivered that from the factory? Seriously? Now of course you can make up all sorts of stories to explain modifications (like a used car dealer) and can always say "prove me wrong", but again: No person with common sense would believe that or even pay for it. In this special case I think, we finally agree, that these ROMs are definately not legit, as it is Midways Ms Pacman and not Namcos Puckman.

If a board was repaired, or some Eproms replaced (we all know they can break), then I personally would still consider it as original, as long as it was not modified in an unoriginal way. That is why I said in post #26, "that it would be worth to revert this board to its original Puckman". Other collectors might see that differently. Some might be even more strict evaluating a PCB, others not at all.

Regards,
Ekki
 
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Of course I have not seen all Puckman PCBs. But with this argument you can claim anything you want, without having to back it up. The argument "Everything is possible as long as no one can prove the contrary" does not mean anything either. You could claim "some Puckman PCBs were red" and if anyone objects you just come up with "That you have not seen a red one does not prove anything". See what I mean? ;-)
No, I don't. Your red PCB example is not a good one, because it is not a realistic one. Again, it is common knowledge that manufacturers often changed things up during production runs (custom chips vs. daughter boards, different ICs, labels, revisions of circuits, etc., etc., etc.). Therefore it is common sense to assume that this may have happened with Puck Man boards as well. NO ONE can be 100% sure that they are all alike, as you were trying to imply. You just CAN'T be a 100% sure, as long as there is not 100% proof.

Just looking at a lot of pictures is not enough. For example, years ago, if you asked me how a Crystal Castles board looked like, my answer would be "it's a long, single board, similar to many Atari PCBs of that period, like Asteroids, Centipede, Missile Command, etc." and I would be a 100% sure. But guess what, suddenly a friend of mine shows up with a shorter, 2 board stack version with a completely different pinout. Lesson learned.

Now it would be a different story if someone has original(!) Namco documentations of PCBs with daughter boards, like real service manual updates etc.. But so far, nobody has and all info you can dig up in Japan about the original Namco PCBs has the custom chips.
Still does not prove anything. Just because such documentation hasn't surfaced does it not give you reason to claim that ALL boards are made in such and such way. You can only assume.

Do you really want to say, that this Rom rack, with different (and bigger) Eproms / wrong and replaced numbers all over the place, looks authentic to you and that NSM might have delivered that from the factory? Seriously?
I never claimed that this example would be an original. I had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of boards in my hands, I mostly have a pretty good idea how to differentiate between original/hack/bootleg.
I object to your claim that absolutely everytime the labels have to look you say they have to. This is simply a very bold claim. Can I assume that they look like that? Probably, given experience with NSM boards. Can I absolutely be sure given the fact that things got changed up all the time? No.

I especially object to this:
These Roms shown above are not the original NSM Roms, which are all exactly alike and have original spare parts numbers on them (just like the boards, etc... "Deutsche Gründlichkeit"). This is not factory default.

NSM is a very correct manufacturer, when it comes to this.

"Deutsche Gründlichkeit"? Really? What you do here is an assumption based on a prejudiced opinion. And you present the results as fact. This is not very scientific and lacks any common sense.

I am tired of this conversation, I'm done.
 
I object to your claim that absolutely everytime the labels have to look you say they have to. This is simply a very bold claim. Can I assume that they look like that? Probably, given experience with NSM boards. Can I absolutely be sure given the fact that things got changed up all the time? No.
Is NSM known to change things up all the time? I certainly know nothing about them as a company, nevermind their Puckman release in particular, but usually label styling doesn't seem to change that often on PCBs far as I've seen, even when the chips themselves change. I'd say this one is an incredibly sound assumption.

It reads like @Ekki is trying to have a spirited debate, and you're taking it as a serious argument. Internet tone may be a factor here.
 
Is NSM known to change things up all the time?
I don't know for sure. They were mainly a distributor when it comes to video game stuff, manufacturing concentrated mostly on those german type wall gambling machines and jukeboxes (which I don't know much about).
Even if they were known to NOT change things up all the time it would not be grounds to assume that they never did.

you're taking it as a serious argument
Well, that's because I AM usually dead serious about those topics.
I am an editor for the KLOV database for years now, you HAVE to be dead serious with things like that. You can't put stuff out there based on the reputation of a company or on what you want the truth to be. You need cold, hard facts.
 
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