Newbie - Problem with System 1 - Cleopatra SS

vbtalent

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My first post on the forum - glad I found a site that is dedicated to the restoration of Pins...

I'm hoping that someone can help me diagnose a problem(s) that I'm having with my Cleopatra SS Pin. I've been a pinball lover ever since my dad introduced them to me in the early 70's, feeling a bit old now... something about a pin just makes me feel comfortable, anyway.

I'm a bit green when it comes to diagnosing problems with electronics but I'm learning more than I ever thought I would. I'm handy with a soldering iron and extremely mechanical in nature. I came across a site (pinrepair.com) that had some diagnostics for checking System 1 problems so I printed off some of the instructions and I was able to follow without much problem however I wasn't able to repair my issue(s).

The problem(s) I'm having is that the out hole doesn't recognize or kick the ball out of the hole while playing a game and also the display's are showing garbage in attract mode as well as the ball count display is garbled but the credits are OK, the displays all test fine in test mode

I pulled the control board and tested all the transistors (http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/index.htm#testtrans), none were bad and all were within range so I reinstalled the board. I did the ground repair that was spoken about and common with System 1 games and also checked the voltages at the power supply for 42 and 60 volts.

I also tested the 7417 chips as described below on the CPU board and they tested fine - all the coils fired as expected.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
7417 chip Test (CPU board locations Z6,Z7).
The 7417 chips at Z6 (located just above connector J5) and Z7 (to the right of Z6) can also be used to test the connection from the CPU board to the driver board, and to test the transistors at Q25-Q32 (all the CPU controlled coils).

With the game on, attach an alligator clip to +5 volts (the positive/upper lead of capacitor C16 on the CPU board). Then touch the Z6 pins 1-6 and pins 8-13 (note pin 7=gnd and pin 14=+5). Each pair of pins (for example Z6 pins 1,2) should fire its associated coil when attached to +5 volts. The same thing can be repeated for Z7 pins 1-4 (only). Refer to the above chart to see which Z6/Z7 pins control which driver board transistor/coil. If only one of the two pairs of pins activates the coil, the Z6 or Z7 chip is bad. If neither pin activates a coil, check the CPU to driver board connector and the driver board transistor.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think I have 2 problems going on - 1 with the displays and the other with the out hole.

Hopefully someone can give me a hand with this..

Merry Christmas!
 
Check your slam switches, and do the slam mod on the CPU regardless.

Also check the coin switches to make sure the wireforms aren't shorting out.

Both of those problems can cause what you are experiencing.
 
i rebuild the CPU to driver board connector with new wires and connector pins whenever i get a new to me sys 1 pin. even if you buy a new CPU you will need this anyway and its fun to cross potential problems off the potential problems list. in fact, i replace ALL the pins inside almost all the connectors everywhere i can. i like do this as tedious as it is, somehow i get into a trancelike state and can bang it out in no time.

you probably need a new CPU. replacing those spider chips is tougher than it looks and one tiny mistake can ruin quite a bit of work. i dont reccomend it.
there are two CPU's you can buy, one has all the boards in one and the other is just the CPU.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Gottlieb-Sy...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b0f7f3a

theres also the Pascal Janin CPU which i think he has both the all in one and the stand alone CPU. heres a write up of them both.

http://www.gamesforum.ca/showthread.php?t=144599&page=9

before you buy either, check the pins inside the connector from the CPU to the driver board. check for corrosion, oxidation, and the spacing of the pins. the pins get weak over time and dont grip tight enough for the outhole to work. if you look real careful, you can see a weak pin as the space is bigger than the others.
 
Check your slam switches, and do the slam mod on the CPU regardless.

Also check the coin switches to make sure the wireforms aren't shorting out.

Both of those problems can cause what you are experiencing.

The slam switch mod seems to have taken care of the display issues but I'm still having the out hole issue.

I'm perplexed how there could be a connection issue between the cpu and driver board when I ran the test by applying +5 to the Z6 and Z7 chip on the cpu... too me that says the connection is good - but I don't really know if that logic applys.

I did notice that when I was testing the Z6 and Z7 chips that one had been replaced with a ZIF socket and they both had some corrosion. Also, that pin 7 which is ground had 0.5 volts showing? These pin has seen better days and was really abused before I got it, it has had some work to the cpu board. The power supply needs to be looked at and the battery needs to be replaced (see below).

So, I'm still stuck with the out hole that doesn't work. Keep in mind that when I start a new game the ball kicks out it just won't advance to the next player as it thinks theballis still in play for player 1.

Thanks,
 

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That is weird considering it kicks a ball out, yet won't recognize a drained ball. You have verified the outhole switch/wiring is good?

I had to go back and do some reading, and I get the felling your game PROM is either bad, or needs reseated and/or socket checked.
 
i dont know if this will work for the display issue,i had the same issue with my hulk and joker poker,it turns out that the memory can become corrupt and cause those display issues,you must reset the memory.push the test switch on the door you will have a #0 to start with,press the reset button on the cpu and the will reset the memory for that item,sounds like you want to reset 7,8,9,10.i did this on both games and it worked both times,your issue could be different but its worth a try.as far as the kick out,go for simple and make sure you leaf switch the ball sits on in the trough is good or clean,i had this issue with a buck rogers and thats what it turned out to be,i've found that most system 1 issues are correctable without replacing boards.but i have had good luck i guess.
 
i dont know if this will work for the display issue,i had the same issue with my hulk and joker poker,it turns out that the memory can become corrupt and cause those display issues,you must reset the memory.push the test switch on the door you will have a #0 to start with,press the reset button on the cpu and the will reset the memory for that item,sounds like you want to reset 7,8,9,10.

It worked! strange enough... I hadn't done a reset since I did the slam mod, since this board needs a new battery can I assume until I do the battery repair this will return as it doesn't retain the reset in memory?

The outhole is really confusing - is Z23 a ZIF where I can just remove and reinstall the chip?

For kicks while in play I just tried shorting the leaf spring under the playfield for the outhole with no effect so I don't think that's the problem. Besides if the leafs weren't working would it still kick a ball when you start a new game as it is doing?

Merry Christmas!!
 
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it may come back with no battery,in my case i installed a remote battery from radio shack,and then did the reset.if there is no battery i think it is fine,i found the problem that corrupted the original memory was a defective ni-cad,i was originally having boot up problems until i removed it as odd as it sounds.two things ive always done when repairing a dead system 1 game is replace pins,i know its said again and again,but 90% of the problems get solved by changing edge connector pins,and i like installing a new rottendog power supply automatically,for the price i think its a no-brainer.
 
z23 is the game prom,it is removable,just take your time removing it,clean the legs and reinstall.
 
Removed and cleaned z23 and still the same issue - no outhole.

I unplugged the machine to be sure while removing the rom and when I started it back up the I get the same type of memory corruption problem, I guess I need to do another reset. Why isn't it retaining the reset?

I'm going to go ahead and order the parts for repairing the edge connectors as I think that will need to happen regardless. While I'm at it I think I'll replace the PS caps...

I'm really at a loss for the outhole issue and I'm solely depending on some help to resolve it, hopefully you guys can help me with it... (fingers crossed)
 
put a battery pack in and it will save the reset,very easy to do,i dont even screw mine in.just run long wires and strap it,or let it sit at the bottom of the head.
 
Yeah, I kind of thought that an external battery pack might cure that problem.. thanks.

Any last thoughts on the out hole issue?

VB,
 
Any last thoughts on the out hole issue?

VB,

Pretty sure on Cleopatra the first ball is delivered by the CPU, after that the switch must till the CPU the ball drained and to kick it out.


Have you run coil test? and tested the outhole switch in switch test?
 
Thanks for the reply pinballDan.

So does lead me in the direction of testing the switch matrix of A1/J7 on the control board? Possibly that the ground on the out hole switch is bad?

Plug A1/J7.
This plug is used for the playfield's entire switch matrix.

* J7 pin 1 (gry/org/org) - outhole switch
* J7 pin 2 (blk/brn/brn) - strobe 0
* J7 pin 3 (blk/red/red) - strobe 1
* J7 pin 4 (blk/org/org) - strobe 2
* J7 pin 5 - not used
* J7 pin 6 (blk/grn/grn) - strobe 4
* J7 pin 7 (blk/yel/yel) - strobe 3
* J7 pin 8 (grn/yel) - ground
* J7 pin 9 - not used
* J7 pin 10 (org/blu/blu) - return 7
* J7 pin 11 (brn/blu/blu) - return 6
* J7 pin 12 (blk/blu/blu) - return 0
* J7 pin 13 (brn/blk/blk) - return 1
* J7 pin 14 (brn/red/red) - return 2
* J7 pin 15 (brn/grn/grn) - return 5
* J7 pin 16 (brn/yel/yel) - return 4
* J7 pin 17 (brn/org/org) - return 3

Since I'm not great at interpreting a schematic diagram and I don't have the specific manual for cleopatra just the ss manual - from what I see in the schematic for the control board J7 pin 1 leads to the outhole but I don't know where this goes besides the playfield, does it flow through the switch and then to ground waiting for the ball to connect the leafs in the outhole? If this is true then couldn't I ground this pin J7/P1 and the outhole should kick? If it does then the problem is on the playfield with the ground on the outhole?

If anyone has a copy of cleopatras schematic that might show something different or the playfield I'd appreciate it...

Thanks for all the help so far.
 
You'll have one dedicated wire going from the switch to the board, and a daisy chained ground wire. You need to continuity check both. You are wasting your time shorting pins if you don't hunt down the problem too.

What Pinball Dan says makes sense - I've never dealt with Multiball on a Sys1. There is no getting around it, you need to visually inspect the switch and continuity check the entire circuit for that switch until you find the problem.

If a spider chip was bad, there would be 3-4 other switches that share that row or column that wouldn't register too. Without your schematics, I don't know what other switches are associated with the outhole though.
 
You'll have one dedicated wire going from the switch to the board, and a daisy chained ground wire. You need to continuity check both. You are wasting your time shorting pins if you don't hunt down the problem too.

Gotcha on the continuity test, I will do that just not 100% sure where to trace. I'm guessing from A1/J7 to the outhole and then to ground?

Does the image attached only deal with the strobes (not sure what that/they is/are) it has a grid layout how do you know what the outhole is?


If a spider chip was bad, there would be 3-4 other switches that share that row or column that wouldn't register too.

Since it appears everything else on the game works I'm "assuming" the spider chip is still good.
 

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Gotcha on the continuity test, I will do that just not 100% sure where to trace. I'm guessing from A1/J7 to the outhole and then to ground?

Does the image attached only deal with the strobes (not sure what that/they is/are) it has a grid layout how do you know what the outhole is?




Since it appears everything else on the game works I'm "assuming" the spider chip is still good.

Before you start, you can simply wedge a lead into the connector at the CPU board, and then touch the other lead to the switch lug. This will tell you if you have overall continuity. If test fails, start at the switch, and then work your way all the way back to the board. Any time you meet up with a connection or solder point, continuity test between that point and the previous point.
 
Before you start, you can simply wedge a lead into the connector at the CPU board, and then touch the other lead to the switch lug.

We are talking about A1/J7 Pin1 as the wedge point correct? "Switch Lug" sorry I'm not familiar with the terminology.. can you elaborate, please.

Thanks,
 
Your picture of the cpu board battery shows some battery corrosion on the board near the connectors. And WTF is up with those wires _soldered_ to the edge connector?
 
Greatest advice on working on any System 1 or System 80 game: Replace all connectors first before any other troubleshooting! When I worked on my first System 1 game, I did not replace them all at first and it could have saved me a lot of time later.

I've had issues before to where the displays look a little dim, specific lights not working, random things not working, etc. Most were cleared up with brand new connectors. The ones under the battery area are really prime for corroding, so make that your first area of suspect...but replace them all anyway. If you have extra cash, purchase a replacement harness for between the MPU and Driver board. These can be purchased at many pinball parts sites (Big Daddy Enterprises, Marco, Etc). It may take awhile to put new connectors on but it is well worth it.

Take care of the simple stuff first and it will save you a lot of time!
 
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