My first pin - a freebie

[smalltownguy2]

You said that when you power it up without a driver board installed, you get a flash followed by steady LED's? If that's the case, voltages are likely going to test ok. Though I still recommend new molex connectors on the power wiring and verifying it at the CPU test points. Start at the beginning, and work your way through systematically. Try chasing symptoms, and you'll just go insane, too many things interconnected at this level of the problem.

Voltage testing on the CPU board is easy, it's got test points all over the place. Your schematic book, or the firepower website, should show you which ones should be seeing which result. You're mainly concerned with the +5v and +12v at this point. I doubt you'll be seeing any problems there. But the reset and blanking ones are handy to know where they are for future tests.

If your voltages are checking ok, best bet at this point is to get your hands on a LEON test ROM. It's a damned powerful little tool. The self-test built into the Williams ROM's is only partly useful. This will test out your RAM's, PIA's and CPU circuits.

Just to play magical fortune teller.... my money is on the PIA for the switch matrix being bad. Very common failure that locks up the whole damned machine. But its WAYYYYYY too early to even think about replacing it.

How's your soldering, and more importantly, your de-soldering? Some parts can be pretty tricky, especially that switch matrix PIA if it's got a lot of heat soak damage.

-Hans

My soldering's fine. I'm pretty much expecting at some point that I'll be replacing a few IC's before this is all done, in addition to the 40 pin interconnect. Where's the best place for me to get Leon's test rom? Can I burn it if I have a burner handy?

 

[HHaase]

Yep, if you burner can handle 2716 EPROMS, you can burn it easy. Leon's website is at
www.flipper-pinball-fan.be

Need to dig through there to find it though, can't do a direct link to it. There's also a few links to the code for it on the pinrepair site. Just make sure to get the System 3-6 version, not the System 7.

Oh, and make sure to thoroughly read all the instructions on pinrepair on how to use it. Do it wrong, if you use it mounted in the machine, and you can blow out all the controlled lamp bulbs on your machine in one big POP. It's meant for bench test work.
-Hans

 

[quses]

I think I will get the Rottendog board, just because I'd like to get the pin up and running. Besides, if I repair my boards, I can sell some stuff to recoup $$.

Be advised that driver boards don't blow themselves out. There's a reason the board is malfunctioning and it's likely one or more coils are shorted out, so don't install a new driver board until you've confirmed all the coils in the machine are ok, or else you might blow the new board.

 

[smalltownguy2]

Am I missing something?

I was looking over the CPU board last night when I noticed something: it appears that IC9 and IC10 are missing? Is that right? I just looks like the chip legs are there, but no chips....

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy. See for yourself. Pic attached.

Hi Res image

 

[HHaase]

That's fine, it's just how a -6A board was assembled. They determined that the buffers at IC9 and IC10 weren't needed anymore on a System 6 board, so they put those jumper headers in there instead of the buffer chips.

-Hans

 

[metahugh]

That's fine, it's just how a -6A board was assembled. They determined that the buffers at IC9 and IC10 weren't needed anymore on a System 6 board, so they put those jumper headers in there instead of the buffer chips.

-Hans

Which is mentioned in the pinrepair guide

To the OP, read everything, go step by step from top to bottom and every step is written out. Its very helpful if you don't know what you are doing.

 

[smalltownguy2]

Which is mentioned in the pinrepair guide

To the OP, read everything, go step by step from top to bottom and every step is written out. Its very helpful if you don't know what you are doing.

OIC now. I read the paragraph on the system 6 board, but missed the 6a section right after it.

I've been through that guide 3 times now, and each time I read it I'm retaining more information. It's like the first time I read it I was learning a new language. The 2nd time I read it, I was comprehending the new language. The 3rd time I read it, I UNDERSTOOD the new language.

Now, the 4th time, I can USE the new language

I've placed an order today from Jameco for some EPROMS, diodes, TIP102s, 4401 transistors, female interconnects, and more. Guess I have to sit back and wait a few days until I can burn my test ROM.

 

[smalltownguy2]

I went over the schematics to make sure I didn't miss testing any coils, and guess what -- I missed one

The coin lockout coil.

Testing it, I get get resistance in like the 250+ range, where the rest of my coils are all 3.5-4. What's that mean?

I pulled a wire from one of the lugs and re-tested, and still get 258 ohms.

 

[HHaase]

That one is actually fine with the resistance as measured. It's a much lower power coil than the rest, and actually is powered up pretty much the entire time the game is powered up. Most people just disconnect them. If you're going to use coins to run the game you can either keep it connected or disconnect it and tie the lockout assembly open to allow coins.

-Hans

 

[Geese]

That one is actually fine with the resistance as measured. It's a much lower power coil than the rest, and actually is powered up pretty much the entire time the game is powered up. Most people just disconnect them. If you're going to use coins to run the game you can either keep it connected or disconnect it and tie the lockout assembly open to allow coins.

-Hans

If you set the machine to freeplay it does not energize the coil.

 

[smalltownguy2]

Okay, my Jameco order arrived, and I have my EPROMS now. It's time for me to burn my Leon's test rom so I can begin diagnosing my MPU board.

Problem is, I can't seem to get these 2716 EPROMS to program. I have tried two different programmers to do it, and both of them can't seem to get the job done. What you folks been using to program 2716 EPROMS?

I got a freebie rom programmer from Chris25810, but I don't believe that one has enough 'oomph' to get to the 21-25 volts needed to program my roms. It runs on 5v from USB power only. It's a TOP2005 universal rom programmer like this one:

http://www.ekt2.com/ekt/prodView.asp?idproduct=244388

I also have a Willems PCB50b universal programmer too:

http://www.sivava.com/buynow.php?pd=A056

And I just can't get either one to program the EPROM correctly.

The EPROMS I got from Jameco are 2716A EPROMS, and they say '21v' on them, which leads me to believe that the require 21 volts to program. I already sent a message to Jameco telling them that I didn't want 2716A EPROMS, I wanted plain old 2716 EPROMS. Does that matter? Every time I try to program one of these roms, I get an error message like 'error at address 0x00...."

I've tried doing some reading to figure out the correct way to program this EPROM, but honestly there's about 9 different jumper headers on this Willem board, and I just can't seem to muddle through the 'english translated' instructions. Anyone use one of these things?

Should I be using different EPROM chips? Should I be using a different programmer?

*sigh*

At least my female interconnect parts arrived this weekend, as well as my Trifuricon pins, plugs, and headers. While I try and sort out this EPROM madness, I can work on converting all my connectors over to Trifuricon pins and get my crappy IDC connectors gone. And I can get my driver board interconnector fixed up proper.

 

[Lindsey]

I also have a Willems PCB50b universal programmer too:

http://www.sivava.com/buynow.php?pd=A056

That programmer claims to do 21V EPROMs. I haven't used that programmer so hopefully someone can comment on the jumper settings. Do you have the device set to 2716A in the software?

Should I be using different EPROM chips? Should I be using a different programmer?

2716A are fine. The programmer could be another story. I'm sure you can get it working with one of those programmers one way or another. The problem could be that it can't supply enough current powered by the USB port alone and you need an external power supply.

At least my female interconnect parts arrived this weekend, as well as my Trifuricon pins, plugs, and headers. While I try and sort out this EPROM madness, I can work on converting all my connectors over to Trifuricon pins and get my crappy IDC connectors gone. And I can get my driver board interconnector fixed up proper.

I wouldn't go too crazy replacing headers and connectors with the game not working. Personally I wouldn't do any preventative maintenance stuff at this stage. Unless required to get the game working. You'll likely be replacing a bunch of stuff unnecessarily and could introduce all kinds of new problems. I definitely wouldn't replace the interconnect until you've gone through the MPU and driver board with a test ROM. That's where you could definitely introduce a new problem. I would try to get it working with what's there first and THEN replace the interconnect. That way you're starting with only the problems that existed when you got the game and you can assess what you need to do from there.

The worst thing you can do to a non-working game is introduce a bunch of new problems by "fixing" stuff unnecessarily. I'm not saying that preventative maintenance stuff shouldn't be done. In fact I recommend doing all the standard stuff. Just do it in a preventative maintenance capacity where you know you're replacing stuff to prevent a future failure. Not to troubleshoot a current failure. See the difference? The best approach (IMO) is to fix all of the problems then do the preventative maintenance work.

 

[smalltownguy2]

Lindsey, you bring up a good point. Best not to do too many more things to the game until I have a chance to systematically troubleshoot the MPU board first.

 

[Lindsey]

Lindsey, you bring up a good point. Best not to do too many more things to the game until I have a chance to systematically troubleshoot the MPU board first.

Don't get me wrong. I understand wanting to jump in with both feet and start actually doing something. In the end though, you'll find that a systematic approach will provide the fastest road to playing the game instead of fixing it

Do you have a logic probe? That's going to be your best friend in troubleshooting the MPU problems. If the IC17 socket is questionable I would replace it but I would try to boot the test ROM in the original socket first.

Have you checked the reset circuit? You can check that without the test ROM. Pin 40 on the CPU should go low for a fraction of a second when you apply power then high. Williams have a nice long reset compared to Bally so it's easier so tell if it's working compared with a Bally/Stern MPU.

 

[smalltownguy2]

Don't get me wrong. I understand wanting to jump in with both feet and start actually doing something. In the end though, you'll find that a systematic approach will provide the fastest road to playing the game instead of fixing it

Do you have a logic probe? That's going to be your best friend in troubleshooting the MPU problems. If the IC17 socket is questionable I would replace it but I would try to boot the test ROM in the original socket first.

Have you checked the reset circuit? You can check that without the test ROM. Pin 40 on the CPU should go low for a fraction of a second when you apply power then high. Williams have a nice long reset compared to Bally so it's easier so tell if it's working compared with a Bally/Stern MPU.

Actually, I DO have a logic probe - I picked up a nice one a few summers back when a local Radio Shack near me went out of business. It's never been out of the package

Looks like I'll doing some learning how to use a new tool....

 

[smalltownguy2]

Okay I hit the MPU with the logic probe, and pin 40 is low. I power cycled the machine, and it stayed low the whole time.

I hooked the leads of my logic probe to TP9 and TP10 for 5v and ground. That's the correct way to do that, right?

If I get no high on pin 40, that means my reset signal is not making it to the CPU, right?

I tried applying 5v directly to pin40, but that didn't make the board boot.

When I press the diagnostic switch on the CPU board, both LED's light up.

 

[smalltownguy2]

Big thanks to HHase for getting me set up with a full set of EEPROMS for this game. Thanks!

This morning I had a few minutes before work to begin working with Leon's test ROM. I started following the pinrepair.com directions, and here's how far I've gotten so far:


MPU board

• MPU board boots with Leon's ROM just fine. LED's are flashing as they should.
• IC18 (display output PIA) tests fine - pins 2-17 all strobing high/low, other pins act as the repair guide says they should.
• Memory test passes - top LED, then bottom LED, then continue flashing.

MPU board w/ driver board attached

• Interconnect pin 37 shows the strobing signal
• Leon's ROM boots fine. LED's flashing.
• flipper relay clicking in sync (not necessary, I know, but noted anyway)
• First PIA I tested (IC11, the switch matrix IC) did not show any strobing on pins 2-17. Some pins were high, some were low. Some showed nothing.

At this point, I was beginning to run out of time, so I started probing the other two PIAs (mostly IC10, the lamp matrix PIA) and I didn't see the expected strobing on pins 2-17 of those PIAs either.

I should note that I have not yet re-soldered the interconnect pins on the MPU board. I wanted to see what Leon's test ROM showed me first.

So at the very least, I'm not seeing the expected activity with the switch matrix PIA. I tested it with my logic probe, connected to test points 9 and 10 on the MPU board. I used the same procedure to test the display output PIA on the MPU board (IC18) and it tested fine -- exactly as the repair guides said it should act. Unless I used the incorrect procedure to test the PIA's on the driver board, have I found my problem?

Thanks in advance for everyone's help...

 

[HHaase]

I should note that I have not yet re-soldered the interconnect pins on the MPU board. I wanted to see what Leon's test ROM showed me first.

So at the very least, I'm not seeing the expected activity with the switch matrix PIA. I tested it with my logic probe, connected to test points 9 and 10 on the MPU board. I used the same procedure to test the display output PIA on the MPU board (IC18) and it tested fine -- exactly as the repair guides said it should act. Unless I used the incorrect procedure to test the PIA's on the driver board, have I found my problem?

Thanks in advance for everyone's help...

Well, since you already know there was/is a problem with the interconnect, I'd start by getting that taken care of. If you're not seeing outputs from any of the driver board PIA's, it's possible that something is getting dropped between the CPU and driver boards.

I would find it very unusual to have all 3 driver board PIA's to have failed, so I wouldn't go swapping them all yet.

Oh and the switch PIA tests a bit differently than the rest, only 2-8 are going to show pulsing as normally. I'll have to dig out my test harness to show you how you need to test it properly. When I get a chance later, have to watch my daughter right now.

-Hans

 

[smalltownguy2]

I'm getting all kinds of crazy readings with the logic probe (and LED tester) on IC5 and IC10. Before I go any farther, I feel like I should resolder the male pins on the MPU board interconnect pins.

Yes? No? Something else I should do?

 

[metahugh]

I'm getting all kinds of crazy readings with the logic probe (and LED tester) on IC5 and IC10. Before I go any farther, I feel like I should resolder the male pins on the MPU board interconnect pins.

Yes? No? Something else I should do?

Have you REPLACED the interconnect on both boards? If not start there before you do anything else.