Mini XY games

I didn't realize it was juice28 (FredK) from RGVAC days ( duh.. I was being slow on the uptake ). For those that don't remember he built the WG6100 HV unit replacement.

Funny, Spaeth used to call him names there and is now white knighting for him. I guess anything to start an argument.
If the OP is Fred, then he still owes me a K6100 deflection board. 🙁 Yes, I go way back to the RGVAC days.

Scott C.
 
The actual issue more about respect for those in our community. Reverse engineering original hardware and making it playable is preserving history. Copying someone else's work is just being lazy. And if every time someone came out with a new kit, someone ripped it off and sold copies, people would stop making anything new.

DogP

if its all about preserving history and "the hobby" then let someone remake the board however they can do it.

All thats happening now is there arent enough to go around so people who want one are being asked to grossly overpay for one.....so much for the "respect for the community" aspect.

Talk to the people who ask $400 for an $100 board about respect for the community.
 
if its all about preserving history and "the hobby" then let someone remake the board however they can do it.
Maybe some people see it that way... I don't. If someone went through the trouble to design something like that, I respect their right to own it. If they're selling for $400, clearly there's a market, so it should be worthwhile for someone to make their own version. It's not unheard of to have multiple kits by different people that do basically the same thing.

DogP
 
Maybe some people see it that way... I don't. If someone went through the trouble to design something like that, I respect their right to own it. If they're selling for $400, clearly there's a market, so it should be worthwhile for someone to make their own version. It's not unheard of to have multiple kits by different people that do basically the same thing.

DogP

Im all for that.. just doesnt make sense to say he's done so its off the market forever when the demand is there.

End of day these are products and they are for sale.. its not charity work or done only for the love of the hobby (if it is then stop selling it and give it away) and its dubious to say someone "owns" these sort of things.

If there is money to be made people will knock shit off.. this happens in all sorts of business.

The way you stop knockoffs is to make a better product at a fair price and you know.. keep making it so dickheads cant ask 4 times normal retail for it.

If he still made the damn board noone would care.
 
You're talking about legality... yes, this (and most multigame kits) don't actually have legal rights to the games. That doesn't mean that someone didn't put a ton of effort into making the kit though (and there is actually a good chunk of Scott's own code that he does own the rights to).

The actual issue more about respect for those in our community. Reverse engineering original hardware and making it playable is preserving history. Copying someone else's work is just being lazy. And if every time someone came out with a new kit, someone ripped it off and sold copies, people would stop making anything new.

DogP

I was pointing out that Scott copied "someone else's hard work" to make the multi board... AND Atari still to this day sells the games that were copied... So it's not like those games need "preserving." I just find it interesting where people draw lines... I don't have a problem with it, I would love to buy one of his multi kits... But he did copy the code of the game and did some programming so that it would run on a modern hardware... He did not reverse engineer the actual game code...
 
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I guess I would add that if you are going to stop making a product that people want as is and they are willing to pay a large sum AND it can be duplicated - what does one expect will happen? It is inevitable... But it hasn't happened, because maybe Scott somehow protected the code he developed to make the three canes work on one kit?

What I can't figure out, is if Lunar Lander can be reproduced using an FPGA board - why hasn't it been done when the original boards are selling at $400 and above?
 
I guess I would add that if you are going to stop making a product that people want as is and they are willing to pay a large sum AND it can be duplicated - what does one expect will happen? It is inevitable... But it hasn't happened, because maybe Scott somehow protected the code he developed to make the three canes work on one kit?

What I can't figure out, is if Lunar Lander can be reproduced using an FPGA board - why hasn't it been done when the original boards are selling at $400 and above?
I'd say the main reasons are:
1) Most of those with the ability to copy the design respect the creator of the work, because they know how much hard work is involved in creating something like that.
2) There's pride that comes along with making something. Who wants to be the guy selling bootleg Braze kits?
3) For lots of people, money isn't the driving factor. Plus you have to actually sell the item, ship it, etc... kinda a hassle. A few years ago, I made a board to output XY, CGA, EGA, and VGA w/ 16-bit color from an FPGA. It was fun to play with, but was mostly just a half-baked thing I tossed together for fun. I don't have any desire to deal with all the hassle of selling something like that to make a few thousand bucks.

DogP
 
The way you stop knockoffs is to make a better product at a fair price and you know.. keep making it so dickheads cant ask 4 times normal retail for it.
....

<threadjack>

So, I'm curious. I've seen your posts voicing your opinion about jacking up the price on the multi in question. My curiosity is this: what, in your opinion, is reasonable for someone to do with a multi in question? Sell it for the price Scott sold it, only to see someone flip it and "be the dickhead"? Sell it for only twice what was paid ?

Full disclosure, I have one of the kits. I've been on the fence about selling it as my AstDX is still in pieces and I have other pressing issues.

I guess the best thing to do is just continue to sit on it.

</threadjack>
 
although interesting to read, the moral high ground argument here is kinda thin, isn't it?
What's that phrase, honor amongst thieves.

One hijack- We've been watching 60 Days In on Netflix. It is interesting that a bunch of locked up thugs have their own moral code that they hold sacred. people are fascinating creatures, to say the least.

This is a another hijack, but a similar explosion happened on FB recently with mini NES cases. The original design was open source, yet when folks started making them and selling at reasonable prices to cover the effort and materials...one person completely blew a gasket about it...with similar moral high ground talk......ummmm, it is a copy of a NES design, folks for a hobby using 3D printers for fun.....

and yet another hijack- a few years back at Pinball Expo banquet, Joe Kaminkow who you know from some classic pinballs and helping restart Stern pinball....is giving his speech and he admitted to Mark Ritchie, who you know as Steve Ritchie's brother and dev of many great A tables.....that they totally took one of the pins Mark was involved in and reverse engineered it for their own product release (must have involved Data East and Capcom, I kinda forget the exact name details).

and another hijack...i'm a lyrical terrorist, baby.... another story at pinball expo. Nolan Bushnell was talking about microprocessor games...and Mike Stroll, who was involved in bringing chips to pinball, then became the President at WMS, reminded him that the processor technology he was talking about was directly acquired from him. wink wink.

and one more hijack....even Eugene Jarvis owns JROK MWS pcbs...and he was very impressed with the work.
 
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To play devils advocate here.... pcbs have been bootleged for as long as they have made pcbs. Games have been copied ever since they were invented.
None of the mulitboards would even exist had they not.

thats-all-i-have-to-say-about-that.jpg
 
<threadjack>

So, I'm curious. I've seen your posts voicing your opinion about jacking up the price on the multi in question. My curiosity is this: what, in your opinion, is reasonable for someone to do with a multi in question? Sell it for the price Scott sold it, only to see someone flip it and "be the dickhead"? Sell it for only twice what was paid ?

Full disclosure, I have one of the kits. I've been on the fence about selling it as my AstDX is still in pieces and I have other pressing issues.

I guess the best thing to do is just continue to sit on it.

</threadjack>


As with a good joke, timing is everything... You just need to be able to predict when the market is injected with a supply of whatever you are sitting on... For example - blue paperboy hunter Wilde grips were fetching $100+ until Markrl did a large run and now sells them for about $60... Same with the 50k pots he now sells for $10... JROK board fetched a nice premium until JROK produced a steady supply... Charging as much as you can for something doesn't make you an jerk - just an opportunist... But opportunists are not always appreciated... Unless you really want a Asteroids multi and you have money to burn... At some point they will become available in good supply, because there is a market for them and there are plenty of "opportunists" in the KLOV community....
 
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To play devils advocate here.... pcbs have been bootleged for as long as they have made pcbs. Games have been copied ever since they were invented.
None of the mulitboards would even exist had they not.

thats-all-i-have-to-say-about-that.jpg

LOL

The moral high ground on NOT copying the someone's work which copied multiple other peoples' work.

I heard this one before on some bad TV Show/Movie in the 90s:
"So let me get this straight, you don't want to cheat on your girl friend who is a prostitute by having sex with your wife?"
 
LOL

The moral high ground on NOT copying the someone's work which copied multiple other peoples' work.

That reminded of another story from pinball past. Gordon Morison was a prolific Gottlieb artist. He worked 60-80hrs a week at the age of 70, even after suffering a heart attack.
He used a phrase called "flexible ethics" to describe his comfort in "lifting" other's artwork.

If you look at the first graphics for Defender, Constantino Mitchell ripped off Star Wars...and that was later dropped in favor of cheaper sprayed art, anyway.

And the Berzerk bezel art...was a straight rip-off of a comic book cover from the artist's youth.

Very high IQ, genius folks in the coin-op world....and they were prolifically creative....same goes for these hobby devs....wow, smokin' smart compared to us average folk.
 
...

And the Berzerk bezel art...was a straight rip-off of a comic book cover from the artist's youth.

Jim Steranko, I believe. Also was lifted many times for pinball back glass.
 

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