looking for recommendation on a scope

starfighter2

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I am looking for a good used scope with x y inputs. and wanted to see what folks recommended. I have not used a scope since colage so would like recommendation on what to look out for so I know I am getting what I need in working condition.
thanks in advance for your thoughts
 
If you are going to use it for mostly classic games, any 20Mhz dual channel scope and a couple probes is going to be all you need. If you plan on using it for working on a vector game and using it to view the output, the Z input to do the blanking of the trace is nice to have. I like the old Tektronics scope models like the 465 they are built like tanks and have a lot of features. You can usually find them at Ham fests for around $250. If you are planning on carrying them around frequently, you may want to look into the newer and smaller digital scopes.
 
If you are going to use it for mostly classic games, any 20Mhz dual channel scope and a couple probes is going to be all you need. If you plan on using it for working on a vector game and using it to view the output, the Z input to do the blanking of the trace is nice to have. I like the old Tektronics scope models like the 465 they are built like tanks and have a lot of features. You can usually find them at Ham fests for around $250. If you are planning on carrying them around frequently, you may want to look into the newer and smaller digital scopes.


What he said although you can find a bargain if not in a hurry. I found an HP equivalent to the 465 on Craigslist and got it for $25.

At any rate, having a scope is a great idea if you are going to work on arcade boards.

Bill
 
Patience patience and patience!

I picked up my scope 2 years ago... TDS210 from Tektronix and paid $450 for it at the time... it was a steal for a small LCD scope. :)

Just watch craigslist and local eBay auctions. You really don't want to ship scopes unless they are in the original factory boxes.
 
We've got a TDS360 here at work. Nice scope, but it's an early digital scope, so it has all the issues associated with them.

I'd try picking up a ~50mhz Analog Scope, especially the old HP's and Tektronix's. You can get them cheap, and they are built to take the knocks.

A quick glance at eBay shows more then a few Tektronix Tek 465's for ~$100. A great, 2-Channel, Analog Scope capable of 100Mhz signal viewing. We actually used one at work before the TDS360.
 
A quick glance at eBay shows more then a few Tektronix Tek 465's for ~$100. A great, 2-Channel, Analog Scope capable of 100Mhz signal viewing.

be wary of buying a scope off ebay even if the picture shows its working

been looking for a tektronix for awhile but havent pulled the trigger yet
 
I've been watching the scopes on ebay but I just dont see any with a Z channel. Is this a rare feature? Or am I missing something? (scope newbie)

Almost all the scopes I see are 2 channel except the crazy priced ones. Is the Z channel the External Trigger port? I have to read some manuals..
 
Not to hijack.. but I am saving up for one as well..

Is 50 or 60 mhz enough for 80's games or should I be looking at 100 mhz?
I know many other factors play into it.. but as a general guideline?
 
20 MHz is enough since most of the clocks are around 1 MHz. I'd focus more on features (LCD screen, good user interface, save screenshot to usb/disk) and low price than on the sampling rate.
 
Thanks Joey.. It appears for other newbies that the Z-axis is really only available on analog scopes and high end digital scopes these days. Agilent has models with a Z-axis but they are way outa my price range.
 
Ebay buys

The only trick with Ebay is that the ad says it 100% working. If the ad doesn't say that contact the seller thru the ebay ad. When Ebay was young it did not have a resolution center but now that they do. When you ask a question using ebay to contact the seller Ebay can look that conversation up. If the seller said that it works completely I feel safe in pulling the trigger. If there is a problem ebay will ask you to contact the seller (use Ebay to contact them) and if you can't find a resolution with the seller you can open a case with the resolution center. I have purchased things that didn't work when the ad said they did and have never been disappointed with the decision of the resolution center. If was getting my money back and shipping it back to the seller at his cost, or keeping it and getting a refund.
 
Basic advice:
Try to limit yourself to a Tektronix or Hewlett-Packard (HP/Agilent) scope. If you want to work on vector games get an analog scope because digital scopes don't do well in X-Y mode and most don't have the Z input. 100 MHz scopes are plentiful and cheap enough that it's a good speed target. Never settle for a single channel scope. Ever. Two full featured channels is the minimum acceptable setup. If you can, get a scope with a dedicated external trigger input or a 4-channel scope.

Rules of thumb for waveform analysis:
1 - The analog bandwidth of the scope should be at least 5 times the fundamental frequency of a square wave you're trying to measure. E.g. If you have a 14.31318 MHz clock that you want to look at, the scope should have a bandwidth greater than 71.6 MHz. This is true for both analog and digital scopes. (5th harmonic for you math geeks)
2 - (digital scopes only) The sampling rate *MUST* be more than twice the fundamental frequency and should be more than twice the highest frequency of interest in the waveform you're measuring. E.g. if you're measuring a 10 MHz sinewave, the sample rate MUST be more than 20 million samples per second. If you're measuring a 10 MHz square wave the sample rate MUST be 20 MS/s and it should be 100 MS/s (using that 5th harmonic rule again).

Stay away from USB "toy" scopes - get a real one.

If a scope has a Z input, it is most likely on the back of the scope for Tek and I think for HP also.

These are generalizations. Both fact and opinion are included. If you have a particular model you're looking at and have questions post them here.
 
I have seen a couple of newer Digital scopes and wanted to see what folks thought of these?

OWON EDU5022 25MHz Digital Oscilloscope $287:
http://www.tequipment.net/OWONEDU5022.html?Source=Google

and Rigol DS1052E 50MHz Digital Oscilloscope $399:
http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html?Source=Google

Not sure I trust Ebay for a good solid Oscilloscope. Most are without probes are cracked, etc, in the $200. With a new probe I get a probe and a warrenty.

What do you think?

I have NEVER heard of those brands and the Chinese knockoff factor sounds high on them!

Tektronix, HP, Agilent are the main brands to look for!
 
The Z channel may go by some other name. Honestly, I'm not sure if that is the real name of it. Like I said before it is a "nice to have" feature, I wouldn't pass up a good deal on a scope if it didn't have it. The only drawback of not having it is that you will see the vector version of the retrace lines when you use it as a monitor. How often do you plan on doing that?

I wouldn't be too worried about the scope calibration either. Maybe I'm the exception but most of the time, I use the scope to look for a signal and rarely measure the voltage or frequency with it. Most of the analog scopes have a test point that you put the probe and can verify the voltage and frequency. You can use that to get an idea of the calibration.
 
I've played with the Rigol 1052E, and helped hack one into the 1102E (100mhz version). Nice scope. Didn't really strike me as a "Chinese Knockoff".
 
I've played with the Rigol 1052E, and helped hack one into the 1102E (100mhz version). Nice scope. Didn't really strike me as a "Chinese Knockoff".

In my reading the Rigol 1052E seems to get very favorable reviews. Its not as cheap as the Atten or Owon scopes but the specs compare well. Supposedly Rigol makes the lower end Agilent scopes and Atten makes the low end Lecroy scopes.

Almost 1/2 my collection is vectors so I imagine I will be using it
as a vector monitor quite a bit so that leads me towards an analog scope
with a Z axis but the digital storage scopes offer a TON more features
not found on analog scopes.. at least in the sub 1k range. Decisions Decisions..
 
In my reading the Rigol 1052E seems to get very favorable reviews. Its not as cheap as the Atten or Owon scopes but the specs compare well. Supposedly Rigol makes the lower end Agilent scopes and Atten makes the low end Lecroy scopes.

Almost 1/2 my collection is vectors so I imagine I will be using it
as a vector monitor quite a bit so that leads me towards an analog scope
with a Z axis but the digital storage scopes offer a TON more features
not found on analog scopes.. at least in the sub 1k range. Decisions Decisions..
It really depends on what features you want in a scope. What are you going to use it for? Do you only want one scope that does everything you need, or are you willing to have more than one? Do you have to have a shiny new scope or is a used scope an option?

For a first scope, I *HIGHLY* recommend getting a used analog scope, Tektronix especially. Tek scopes are easy to find, they are built well, and they are easy to use even for beginners. They are also reasonably priced. At home, I do 99% of my design and testing with a Tektronix 2445A. I will occasionally break out a digital storage scope, but that's very rare. At work, I use DSO scopes but that's only because work likes the "shiny" factor.

Speaking of work, they have one Rigol scope. The interface is terrible and the software is well, terrible. The probes that came with the scope are both broken. And they were not abused. They are just poorly constructed. I'm guessing they were never right. Based on that, I say avoid Rigol. The QA factor is not good. Everyone I've talked to that liked a Rigol scope had modified it somehow, often by replacing the software with something home brewed. You shouldn't have to do that. Plus it defeats the only real purpose of buying new - the warranty. Gone once you hack it.

If you do get a used scope, buy locally (craiglist, etc). You want to actually see the scope working and you want to carry it home. Because UPS *will* destroy that ebay scope for you even if it really was working before being shipped.
 
It really depends on what features you want in a scope. What are you going to use it for? Do you only want one scope that does everything you need, or are you willing to have more than one? Do you have to have a shiny new scope or is a used scope an option?

For a first scope, I *HIGHLY* recommend getting a used analog scope, Tektronix especially. Tek scopes are easy to find, they are built well, and they are easy to use even for beginners. They are also reasonably priced. At home, I do 99% of my design and testing with a Tektronix 2445A. I will occasionally break out a digital storage scope, but that's very rare. At work, I use DSO scopes but that's only because work likes the "shiny" factor.

Speaking of work, they have one Rigol scope. The interface is terrible and the software is well, terrible. The probes that came with the scope are both broken. And they were not abused. They are just poorly constructed. I'm guessing they were never right. Based on that, I say avoid Rigol. The QA factor is not good. Everyone I've talked to that liked a Rigol scope had modified it somehow, often by replacing the software with something home brewed. You shouldn't have to do that. Plus it defeats the only real purpose of buying new - the warranty. Gone once you hack it.

If you do get a used scope, buy locally (craiglist, etc). You want to actually see the scope working and you want to carry it home. Because UPS *will* destroy that ebay scope for you even if it really was working before being shipped.

Your advice makes a lot of sense. I'm probably considering products that
have more then I need at this point. I'll keep an eye out for a cheap analog
scope with a Z axis locally.. give it a whirl for a while and learn on it. If I
end up needing more, I'll upgrade or add a second DSO
 
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