Lamp matrix test board design input needed

[Lindsey]

That's my thinking as well, I just haven't had time to re-assemble it all again. Could have sworn I had the order right, but worth checking.

The other thought is that I may have to add some bypass capacitors into the layout.

All the address and data lines are matching up ok. With a test light, activity seems to be what I want it all to be, but I think I may have to dig out my o'scope to confirm that the chip select is matching what it should be doing.

-Hans

Like I said, I would start with the test ROM just to be sure it will boot then look at the order of the ROM within the EPROM.

Decoupling caps are a good idea but I doubt that would cause the MPU to lock up. Easy enough to solder some in just to be sure.

I'm not sure if an oscilloscope is going to be much help. You might see the enable strobing but you won't necessarily know why. You'd need a logic analyzer to look at everything in action. But again... I wouldn't mess with that until I had tried it with a test ROM.

 

[configurethis]

Hey guys;

Ok, here's one of the reasons I shelved the Bally Home boards... too many people were asking me to follow up on my previous diagnostic tester. The #1 request I'm getting is for a lamp matrix tester.

Well, I'm proceeding with it.

( For those not familiar with my solenoid tester, here's my info link for it. KLOV folks can PM me for lower pricing on these. http://www.siegecraft.us/tester.html )

Anyway, the lamp matrix tester will be fairly simple too. Basically the design will just be an 8x8 LED matrix on a small board that you plug into your CPU board for bench testing. Looking for some feedback from folks again, as I got some great ideas back when I did my solenoid tester, which ended up a lot more versatile due to input from you guys.

I'm looking at two ways of packaging it, either as an un-assembled kit for around $15 or a fully assembled board for around $35. This time around, I want to make it a bit more refined of an end product than just selling a bare circuit board with a URL to instructions.

What I really need most for feedback is how you guys can use this for boards other than what I am familiar with. I'm focusing these mostly on Williams boardsets, but want to make it useful for other manufacturers that use an 8x8 matrix for their controlled lamps. I know flat out that these will NOT work for the old Atari machines, they use a totally different concept on their controlled lamps.

-Hans

(Oh, and before anybody asks... I don't do pre-orders. I'll do a list of folks who are interested, but I don't take any payments until I'm tested and ready to ship.)

Count me in as well.

 

[HHaase]

Like I said, I would start with the test ROM just to be sure it will boot then look at the order of the ROM within the EPROM.

Decoupling caps are a good idea but I doubt that would cause the MPU to lock up. Easy enough to solder some in just to be sure.

I'm not sure if an oscilloscope is going to be much help. You might see the enable strobing but you won't necessarily know why. You'd need a logic analyzer to look at everything in action. But again... I wouldn't mess with that until I had tried it with a test ROM.

The main CPU board works fine with a LEON test ROM, and works with a GORGAR ROM set, so the CPU board is good. I'll re-build the ROM image tonight sometime.

I wish I had a logic analyzer, as I'd be able to cross check a lot of stuff such as the actual state of the chip select tree on the board itself compared to what I've built up. It's on my list of thing I want to get.

I'll get back to it tonight, there isn't THAT much to this circuit.

-Hans

 

[HHaase]

Configurethis;

Which one were you looking at, I kinda let this thread take a bunch of directions.

The lamp matrix, switch matrix, or one of the solenoid boards?

-Hans

 

[Lindsey]

The main CPU board works fine with a LEON test ROM, and works with a GORGAR ROM set, so the CPU board is good. I'll re-build the ROM image tonight sometime.

I'm talking about testing the daughter board with the test ROM. I assumed the MPU was working to start with. Get it to boot like that and go from there.

I wish I had a logic analyzer, as I'd be able to cross check a lot of stuff such as the actual state of the chip select tree on the board itself compared to what I've built up. It's on my list of thing I want to get.

Me too but I don't feel like I would use it that much so I've never bought one. As far as the EPROM selects on the original MPU go you can figure that out with the schematic and parts data sheets.

EDIT: I took a look at the system 6a schematic and the start addresses for the ROMs are printed right on the schematic. That should help.

 

[HHaase]

D'oh, totally missed your point on building the LEON rom into a 2764. It tests fine using the test rom, and all the RAM checks pass as well.

And, not sure what happened, but the ROM was corrupt. I rebuilt and re-burned a fresh one, and it's a runner! Burning it in on my bench rig right now, but it's in attract mode, will do a live machine test in a couple days.

Schweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

-Hans

 

[Lindsey]

Cool

While you were doing that I figured out the order for the ROM. Guess that's not too useful now. hehe

I guess it's useful because I might need to put a universal RAM/ROM board in a firepower some day. Also useful for a single EPROM conversion in an original socket.

Might as well add this here.

For Firepower 2764:
prom1
prom2
prom3
unused 512 bytes
gamerom
green 1
green 2

This command should work to create the ROM:
copy /b PROM1.474 + PROM2.474 + PROM3.474 + PROM3.474 + GAMEROM.716 + GREEN1.716 + GREEN2.716 Firepower.764

Using these ROMs:
http://www.ipdb.org/files/856/Williams_1980_Firepower_Game_ROM_L_2.zip

 

[HHaase]

Sharing info is ALWAYS good in a small hobby like this, particularly bringing machines like Firepower back to life where you need these kinds of workarounds.

You can also build it using the 2732 combo rom, followed by Green1 and Green2.

I also saw that Leon has a new test ROM version out as of August in a 2532 package for all system 3-7 machines. I haven't had a chance to dig into it yet, so don't know the details.

-Hans

 

[HHaase]

Ok, Firepower board ran in a live machine test today just fine. Which is good, because the machine had been giving me all sorts of problems prior to putting this board into it.... and was the factor that kinda forced me into making them.

Working on assembling the 5 that I have on hand, and now the tricky part of getting approval from Williams to distribute the combined ROM code. Selling the board with a blank eprom is no big deal, but I can't load any software onto it without their OK. So I won't be doing a larger run until then.

-Hans

 

[HHaase]

Finally got those initial LED matrix blocks in. Glad I decided to wait and prototype these, no doubt about it. They count the rows from bottom to top, not from top to bottom. They're also row cathode, not column cathode like I thought they were.

No real problem at all, just that it changes my trace layout a bit. But at least I have a part number that I know how it functions. Will get the layout re-done tomorrow hopefully, then one more re-confirmation that I have the thing correctly oriented and such, and then I can think about getting the board order done.

-Hans

 

[HHaase]

One way or another, I'm putting a board order in by Monday the 14th. If the licensing gets worked out for the Firepower EPROM adapters, it will be those, otherwise it's going to be the lamp matrix boards.

I'd actually be ordering the matrix boards today, but I had a totally unrelated problem with my Black Knight machine that fried the 5v section of the power supply on my Black Knight. Whoops. But it kept me from doing the last verification test on my prototype unfortunately. Parts should be here in a couple days from GPE. Worst case, I can take it over to Mom's house to test it on Firepower.

-Hans

 

[Lindsey]

One way or another, I'm putting a board order in by Monday the 14th. If the licensing gets worked out for the Firepower EPROM adapters, it will be those, otherwise it's going to be the lamp matrix boards.

I'd actually be ordering the matrix boards today, but I had a totally unrelated problem with my Black Knight machine that fried the 5v section of the power supply on my Black Knight. Whoops. But it kept me from doing the last verification test on my prototype unfortunately. Parts should be here in a couple days from GPE. Worst case, I can take it over to Mom's house to test it on Firepower.

-Hans

Reminds me of the time I tried to "fix" the magna-save on my Black Knight and fried the switch matrix PIA in the process. Turned out to be the ground between the head and cabinet was not connected. DOH!

Your original thread actually inspired me to finish up some loose ends on a couple of my designs and I'm going to be making a board order myself this week. Thanks

Do you really think licensing is going to be an issue? Don't get me wrong, I respect that you're taking the legal approach but all kinds of people sell programmed EPROMs and I haven't heard about them getting C&Ds. That would be kind of a downer because I'm planning to sell boards that will go in any 680x based pin so that's pretty much every Williams pin ever made.

 

[HHaase]

Reminds me of the time I tried to "fix" the magna-save on my Black Knight and fried the switch matrix PIA in the process. Turned out to be the ground between the head and cabinet was not connected. DOH!

Your original thread actually inspired me to finish up some loose ends on a couple of my designs and I'm going to be making a board order myself this week. Thanks

Do you really think licensing is going to be an issue? Don't get me wrong, I respect that you're taking the legal approach but all kinds of people sell programmed EPROMs and I haven't heard about them getting C&Ds. That would be kind of a downer because I'm planning to sell boards that will go in any 680x based pin so that's pretty much every Williams pin ever made.

For the bare board, it's a total non-issue. Doesn't use any Williams design material, or any code of any type, and is for use on a board set that any patents (if it was even patented at all) expired over a decade ago at minimum.So as long as you don't include any code on them, and say "Compatible with any 680X based pinball machine" you should be fine. If you say, "For Williams Firepower Pinball", then you'll open up to potential issues.

E-bay ROM burners apparently get hit all the time, and that's huge as far as market exposure to be able to sell via e-bay.

But it makes it easier for me to sell them with the EPROM already on there with the Firepower code installed, which really opens up a lot more sales methods. I know a few people that have had C&D's issue to them for various code infractions. Oliver Kaegi had some issues, and they also shut down that WPC "Ghosting" patch as well. Gottleib goes after anybody that offers manuals or ROM files for download or sale that isn't licensed, even IPDB got shut down on that regard.

-Hans

 

[Lindsey]

For the bare board, it's a total non-issue. Doesn't use any Williams design material, or any code of any type, and is for use on a board set that any patents (if it was even patented at all) expired over a decade ago at minimum.So as long as you don't include any code on them, and say "Compatible with any 680X based pinball machine" you should be fine. If you say, "For Williams Firepower Pinball", then you'll open up to potential issues.

E-bay ROM burners apparently get hit all the time, and that's huge as far as market exposure to be able to sell via e-bay.

But it makes it easier for me to sell them with the EPROM already on there with the Firepower code installed, which really opens up a lot more sales methods. I know a few people that have had C&D's issue to them for various code infractions. Oliver Kaegi had some issues, and they also shut down that WPC "Ghosting" patch as well. Gottleib goes after anybody that offers manuals or ROM files for download or sale that isn't licensed, even IPDB got shut down on that regard.

-Hans

Interesting. I knew about the Gottlieb stuff and the ghosting code is kind of a different issue. I'm not too sure how to handle the Williams stuff with the code being available on IPDB. I also wonder if reproduction MPUs are licensed. I'm curious to see how it turns out for you. Checking with Williams in advance is probably the way to go.

Selling without the code or a way for the buyer to easily install the code isn't really an option. I have a version that includes a microcontroller and parallel EEPROM so you can re-write the game ROM/RAM via USB from a computer. Worst case I could sell those and let people put their own code on but they'll cost considerably more. The version with no microcontroller and conventional EPROM will be a lot cheaper. It's also tested and ready to go where the USB programmable version is not (still have to write all the microcontroller and user interface code).

 

[HHaase]

Interesting. I knew about the Gottlieb stuff and the ghosting code is kind of a different issue. I'm not too sure how to handle the Williams stuff with the code being available on IPDB. I also wonder if reproduction MPUs are licensed. I'm curious to see how it turns out for you. Checking with Williams in advance is probably the way to go.

Selling without the code or a way for the buyer to easily install the code isn't really an option. I have a version that includes a microcontroller and parallel EEPROM so you can re-write the game ROM/RAM via USB from a computer. Worst case I could sell those and let people put their own code on but they'll cost considerably more. The version with no microcontroller and conventional EPROM will be a lot cheaper. It's also tested and ready to go where the USB programmable version is not (still have to write all the microcontroller and user interface code).

Really a matter of how big you want to grow, in all honesty. The bigger you get, the more market exposure you get, the more you have to worry about being noticed by Planetary Pinball and Williams. I'm playing the angle that I'd like to keep releasing new designs, and have the maximum number of options for marketing. But to be able to be sold by the bigger distributors and on something as wide open as E-bay, you need to go by the book.

It's also a lot about laying the groundwork for future business relationships and all that fun stuff. Getting on their good sides, and developing a corporate reputation. Doing that kind of schmoozing opens up a lot of doors over time. So that means going through the trouble of licensing, eventually registering a business in one form or another, and all the annual paperwork that goes along with it.

Way back when I also ran an online paintball shop, so I've gone through all this fun before. But it let me do a lot of things that otherwise wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Next thing I knew I was writing magazine articles, being invited to industry dinners, team invitations, and actually having a small but loyal fan base(god, that was wierd) for the team I ended up putting together.

Which reminds me, I REALLY need to get that DBA filed soon.

-Hans

 

[HHaase]

Oh, and got my power supply up and running again. Which meant I could finally test the lamp matrix board, which worked fine anyway, but makes me feel better before sending out for a $300 pile of blank boards for it.

http://www.siegecraft.us/the_siege_blog/blog/assets_c/2011/11/000_0341-508.html

And if you want some humor, here's the power supply issue
http://www.siegecraft.us/the_siege_blog/blog/2011/11/power-supply-repair.html

-Hans

 

[mrbill08]

I'm in for one of each of the boards. Have bought from you before and very satisfied.

Bill

 

[HHaase]

Matrix boards are on the way, should be here in two weeks. Then another week or so to pack up the kits for them.

Looks like this batch of projects is pretty much at the end of development here, and thanks for all the input from everybody.

 

[HHaase]

Lamp matrix boards are here! Just waiting on the other components, which should be here in about a week, and I can start assembling them.
http://www.siegecraft.us/pinball/lampmatrixtester.html

For the EPROM adapters everything is already on order. Most stuff for these will be here in the next week or so, but the interconnects will be a few weeks. Hard to find those pieces at a good price, unless you are willing to wait, and GPE didn't have many left.

-Hans

 

[mrbill08]

PP sent for a lamp matrix tester - another awesome test tool.

Bill