Infraction system Q&A

mclemore

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This week I've posted a number of updated posts about the use of the site, and rolled in a number of new features such as 'prefixes' on the 'For Sale' sections.

One of these posts was about the infraction system. The system has been here since we moved to vBulletin, and we've given points before. It hasn't been a first line of defense before (and it is now).

Today's FAQ post about it:

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1912938

Now I didn't have 'reply' permissions turned off for the Rules section as I intended, so there were two follow up posts added that I am about to delete, but will reference here:

Thus, a single point for a relatively minor offense may be enough to push you over the edge if you are already on probation. [This is commonly referred to as the Lohan effect.]
How does the OJ effect play in here? (If you're famous enough, you can get away with murder)

Hopefully not in this courtroom...

Will there be any insight into who's banned, and for how long?

For example, if it happens automatically, and Person A gets banned, while in the middle of a transaction with Person B, will Person B be able to tell Person A's been banned? Or will they think they're being ignored? This could lead to broken sales, etc.

If it's noted on their profile, or on their posts, that could mitigate some of it (he just stopped answering PMs... oh, he's banned until Tuesday).

I'm not expecting there to be more bans than there are now, just more warnings. Either the ban will be subtle or not so subtle. Not so subtle would be somethign like a user title change (temporary). Subtle will be what we have now. Most bans come and go without anyone else noticing. I think a clue is though that while someone is on a temp ban you can't send them a PM.

We will address this as it happens. Most people that will get bans will be able to see it coming (more so than before). That should help.
 
A perfectly selected offensive photo will earn a member a whole lot more

Farewell, Avidgeek... I hardly knew thee... ;)

I sincerely hope "offensive" is subject to interpretation...
 
Some clarification of what's acceptable is definitely in order. I got dinged this week for dropping "FU" on someone, but I can search and find over 400 posts (at least one made by the mod that dinged me) containing the exact same phrase.
 
Mod #1 doesn't find XYZ offensive, but Mod #2 does and issues points accordingly. Or Mod #1 deems the offense punishable by a mere warning while trigger happy Mod #2 goes for the jugular. Users notice that User #1 was banned for WXY and User #2 was merely given a warning for the same action...you see where this is going.

I agree, the disparity among the Mods seems problematic. Their temperments are very... divergent.
 
Another problem could be a mod is in a bad mood one day and more easily offended. While, on another day, they would let the same issue slide or issue a warning. Also, warnings need to be tracked. If three mods give the same person a warning for the same thing, that's not right. Also, if a mod has a personal grudge against someone, they may be harsher on them than is needed. We can't say it won't happen. They are human, too.
 
Philt80. Your post addresses a variety of complex yet different issues, so let me try and break them up:

... it would seem the use of an infraction system would cause more headaches than benefits as I believe it opens the door for even more subjective hits being issued.

Example:
Mod #1 doesn't find XYZ offensive, but Mod #2 does and issues points accordingly. Or Mod #1 deems the offense punishable by a mere warning while trigger happy Mod #2 goes for the jugular. Users notice that User #1 was banned for WXY and User #2 was merely given a warning for the same action...you see where this is going.

If 'hits' means 'bans', then I think you are going to see less subjective hits (bans) occurring, and more importantly, more warnings, more visibility on the part of posters, and less likely that someone is going to feel 'surprised'. People may not like getting more warnings and infractions, but I think it's going to result in less bans, just counting moderator action and not even the deterrent effect.

Your example defines what can happen now. Moderators warn, and they ban, and that is their choice based on the content of the post and the behavior of the poster. As far as two people doing the same thing and one getting a warning and one not—there are lots of reasons for this, including past behavior. I can think of a post right now that one person could get a warning for, and yet a specific other person that we are tired of warning would likely get a 3-7 day vacation for. Also, I generally have very little sympathy for "He ran a red light and didn't get caught (or received a warning), so why did I get a ticket" kind of talk.

The mods and admins receive a substantial amount of complaints about posts, and additionally see some issues themselves. The vast majority of these reports deal with attacks and offensive posts made by a relatively small number of people. Several of these people have been repeatedly warned, and regardless, several of the posts seem intentionally designed to push the limits or to attack other people. [BTW: In case anyone is curious, another common type of report we see often, but not nearly as often, is simply that a post was made in the wrong section and should be moved. Rarely though is there a problem with a user repeatedly and intentionally doing so.]

There is frustration on the part of many users here ("Why aren't these people just banned."), on the parts of the moderators and admins ("Why are we still dealing with this same problem, and, I'm a volunteer and this is taking time and isn't fun."), and on the parts of some of 'problem children' ("It's normal -adult- language, what's the problem, and other people post those kinds of things..")

Right now the moderators agree that several users are begging for temp bans. There is a little less agreement on how long those temp bans should be for if they continue being problem children. Putting more emphasis on an infraction system takes a good element of subjectiveness out of the process.

Remember that the vast majority of infractions aren't going to result in an automatic single post ban. Points for all but the most serious infractions expire. It's really only going to affect people that don't take the hint.

...Not fighting the system btw...just offering an opinion since I assume that is why this post was left open.

I didn't have a personal need to discuss this, I believe moving from our more informal infraction system that exists now to a more formal one (used and tested by hundreds if not thousands of vBulletin systems) is worth a try. I just didn't want to stifle comments and questions on same, and thus it seemed best to anchor the conversation here.

...
Also, is this an assumed answer of "No" to the question posed of an adult oriented sub-forum for general discussion?

Although I'll address this topic here, it's really well beyond the scope of a thread about infraction points.

I wouldn't assume 'no', though it's unclear if there really is a point to such a section. That partially depends on the nature of CAAA.

The more people push it (repeatedly) in CAAA, General, etc., the more cautious I am about going down that road. Also, the more people push it (repeatedly) already, the more I'm hearing from different people that they think opening a NSFW area is a bad idea. There are also a number of logistical, technical, and other aspects of such a request. And most importantly, before a new section can be considered, the CAAA section and its purpose and limits have to be a tad more clearly defined (apparently). So that's step 1.

The topic has just been punted into late January or February. It's hard to even think about such a section when the rest of the forum sections need a little wrangling. We are going to work on clarifying rules and guidelines, education about same, and moderating on same. Regarding guidelines, part of the clarification process is to try and move all the piece of them into one easy to find structured area. Then let's see where that takes us.
 
Some clarification of what's acceptable is definitely in order. I got dinged this week for dropping "FU" on someone, but I can search and find over 400 posts (at least one made by the mod that dinged me) containing the exact same phrase.

Some of what you ask for regarding clarification is already there. Additional clarification is coming. Earlier this week the 'Rules and Guidelines' subsection under one of the two announcements section was moved to the top level of the forum to make it easier to find. Then the two announcements sections (for the forums, and for the rest of the site) were combined into a single announcements section, and their threads merged. Unfortunately in this process, the main forum rules and guidelines thread was lost. I'll start recreating it either this week and/or into January. I think all the more specific rules/guidelines/faq posts survived. One of the goals is to make specific information easier to find (ie: Last Call Guidelines) if someone doesn't want to have to re-read an entire long post. The whole section is likely to get some further freshening up in Q1.

Regarding the 'FU' post, I wasn't the one that dinged you, but if it is the post I think I saw a report on, I agree with the decision. And actually, you didn't get any 'points' for it, but just a warning. It doesn't matter if other people did the same thing. Also, you don't know who else might have received similar warnings.

Your post was an attack and an escalation (and an unnecessary use of 'FU' btw), all of which could have easily led to a response back from your target.

I have repeatedly posted (as have the mods and admins) "Don't attack other users".

Additionally, the sticky in the CAAA section states, "please refrain from posting anything offensive, overtly sexual, personal attacks, inappropriate photos, etc."
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=96817

And the "For Sale / Wanted Sections – Additional Guidelines" sticky begins with "Abuse: The board follows a general 'do unto others' policy. Don't abuse, attack, insult, or bait other posters, even those most deserving. If any user posts abusively, report the thread for further review."
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=215218

And the 'FAQ – Forum Use' sticky, in a discussion about avatars that really applies to posting in general includes, "Avatars should be non-controversial and non-offensive to the vast majority of members of the public at large. Do not use images that contain the likeness of another person, overt sexuality, hateful or racist content, extreme violence, political messages, or any other content likely to offend. Images used elsewhere on the site should likely not contain content likely to be deemed controversial or offensive."
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=100410

I agree, the disparity among the Mods seems problematic. Their temperments are very... divergent.

I think some of what you notice is simply that some moderators are more active than others (and spend more time online and are quicker to respond), and that should become even more obvious with the infraction system being used more since the users will simply have more visibility into moderator concerns. But if that is the way you feel, then you should like the new system. Instead of a moderator feeling that a user has been warned enough and banning him/her for x amount of days, a collective and ongoing process of warnings and 'points' should help to make things more clear. It should only be a problem for those that don't want to play nice.

Another problem could be a mod is in a bad mood one day and more easily offended. While, on another day, they would let the same issue slide or issue a warning. Also, warnings need to be tracked. If three mods give the same person a warning for the same thing, that's not right. Also, if a mod has a personal grudge against someone, they may be harsher on them than is needed. We can't say it won't happen. They are human, too.

Actually, it's less of a problem. Now a user can get a warning or a ban. Now the moderator has an extra in between option, "infraction points", which is a great alternative to 'warn, shoot, or warn, warn, warn, shoot'.

Points that turn into bans upon repeated behavior do (for the vast majority of cases) expire, and if someone gets enough points to lead to a ban, the system starts out gently.

The way the infraction system works is that while a moderator can give a manual amount of points for a specific issue, in general the moderator will select from a list of choices, and these choices have set point values. While we will likely tune the system over time, this will be on a system-wide basis. Additionally, the way vBulletin is designed, once a moderator gives a warning for a specific post, no other moderator can flag the same post. Thus, you aren't going to get three mods giving warnings or points for the same thing. Additionally, all warnings and citations show up in the system in a way all the moderators can see what the other moderators are doing. It's logged in a central place (all warnings and infractions) and can also be viewed while looking up a user.

Note: Just because a user receives an infraction point (or several) for a post doesn't mean that the moderator will automatically edit or delete the post. It's important to remember that just because you think someone got away with something they shouldn't of doesn't mean they did.

Really very little has changed. Primarily: There is more visibility on moderator thought by users that moderators are concerned about. Secondarily: There is likely to be a little more more standardization in responses to problem posts.
 
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Regarding the 'FU' post, I wasn't the one that dinged you, but if it is the post I think I saw a report on, I agree with the decision. And actually, you didn't get any 'points' for it, but just a warning. It doesn't matter if other people did the same thing.

It matters when the person issuing the infraction uses the same language at least as often as I do. Or laughs it up when some people tell others to FO, but then drops the hammer on my post.

Also, you don't know who else might have received similar warnings.

Actually, it's fairly obvious when you search. My comment says [deleted by moderator] at the time of the infraction, while other comments containing the exact same language remain. Including comments made the same day.

Your post was an attack and an escalation (and an unnecessary use of 'FU' btw), all of which could have easily led to a response back from your target.

I have repeatedly posted (as have the mods and admins) "Don't attack other users"

FU is not an attack, it's a response to an attack. That aside, if comments that could lead to an escalated response is the new threshold, this whole forum is will be dead by year end.

That said, it's your forum and I will respect your decision. But that does not change my opinion that it's BS for a mod to drop the F word left and right and to ignore other posters who write FU and FO on a daily basis.

And FWIW, it's also BS for a mod to ignore a users message when they are PM'd to ask for clarification on what they did wrong. If you're going to step up as a mod and start handing out punishments, then you had better be prepared to explain to them what you did and why you did it.

Actually, it's less of a problem. Now a user can get a warning or a ban. Now the moderator has an extra in between option, "infraction points", which is a great alternative to 'warn, shoot, or warn, warn, warn, shoot'.

In my experience, infraction points increases short term bans because it disassociates the mod from the ban. i.e. "I didn't ban them, I only gave them points. The ban just happened automatically" Don't get me wrong, I think the system works on a macro scale. But, don't expect it to reduce contention over disciplinary issues as you may envision.

Points that turn into bans upon repeated behavior do (for the vast majority of cases) expire, and if someone gets enough points to lead to a ban, the system starts out gently.

Yes, but two 5pt infractions (typical) results in a ban. And if of one of them is viewed as BS, don't expect the poster to come back happy about it. Hence, increased contention. That, and your comment is almost a textbook example of my precious comment about disassociation. You view a few points or a short ban as a gentle reminder, while your users have a much different opinion. It's not that different than traffic cops and drivers. But my point is this; When's the last time you said anything good about a traffic cop?

Note: Just because a user receives an infraction point (or several) for a post doesn't mean that the moderator will automatically edit or delete the post. It's important to remember that just because you think someone got away with something they shouldn't of doesn't mean they did.

Terrible idea. That will make it clear as mud what's acceptable or not. Not only does it obscure the rules, it creates hard feelings. When a user gets gigged for something 20 other people have done apparently without penalty, they feel as if they are being singled out. That pushes otherwise good members away for what may have been a trivial matter. Whatever you choose, I strongly recommend against this approach.

All that said, this is just my $0.02. I'm throwing it out there not because I don't like it, but because I think some of the provisions will hurt the forum as a whole.
 
[FONT=&quot]
It matters when the person issuing the infraction uses the same language at least as often as I do. Or laughs it up when some people tell others to FO, but then drops the hammer on my post.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]It sounds like you have specific concerns about a specific moderator or this infraction. it might be better addressed by PM.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
FU is not an attack, it's a response to an attack. That aside, if comments that could lead to an escalated response is the new threshold, this whole forum is will be dead by year end.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]It might have been a response, but it was clearly an escalation. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]People tend to take FU and FO a tad more personally that other F*[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At some point an escalated response is clearly an attack, and it's always been treated as such. There is nothing new here.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It sounds like you have specific concerns about a specific moderator or this infraction. it might be better addressed by PM.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Yes, but two 5pt infractions (typical) results in a ban. And if of one of them is viewed as BS, don't expect the poster to come back happy about it. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I don't recall writing that two typical infractions would result in a ban. Sounds like you might have some experience with another forum system….? Again, I think a few in this thread might be making this to be a bigger change than it is.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In your example above you received 0 points.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
All that said, this is just my $0.02. I'm throwing it out there not because I don't like it, but because I think some of the provisions will hurt the forum as a whole.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The collective management of a forum system with thousands of active users and just shy of 2 million posts isn't simple. If using this built-in forum functionality works, great. If not, we'll alter it or move to a different style of management.[/FONT]

 
IF you conduct yourself in an adult manner you'd have nothing to worry about. thats just my 2 cents....flame me if you wish but I moderate on a forum too and let me tell you it is a very thankless job!
You'd be surprised [how some adults act like children.
conduct yourself the same as you would in front of your grandmother.
=SuperSprint;1914240]It matters when the person issuing the infraction uses the same language at least as often as I do. Or laughs it up when some people tell others to FO, but then drops the hammer on my post.



Actually, it's fairly obvious when you search. My comment says [deleted by moderator] at the time of the infraction, while other comments containing the exact same language remain. Including comments made the same day.



FU is not an attack, it's a response to an attack. That aside, if comments that could lead to an escalated response is the new threshold, this whole forum is will be dead by year end.

That said, it's your forum and I will respect your decision. But that does not change my opinion that it's BS for a mod to drop the F word left and right and to ignore other posters who write FU and FO on a daily basis.

And FWIW, it's also BS for a mod to ignore a users message when they are PM'd to ask for clarification on what they did wrong. If you're going to step up as a mod and start handing out punishments, then you had better be prepared to explain to them what you did and why you did it.



In my experience, infraction points increases short term bans because it disassociates the mod from the ban. i.e. "I didn't ban them, I only gave them points. The ban just happened automatically" Don't get me wrong, I think the system works on a macro scale. But, don't expect it to reduce contention over disciplinary issues as you may envision.



Yes, but two 5pt infractions (typical) results in a ban. And if of one of them is viewed as BS, don't expect the poster to come back happy about it. Hence, increased contention. That, and your comment is almost a textbook example of my precious comment about disassociation. You view a few points or a short ban as a gentle reminder, while your users have a much different opinion. It's not that different than traffic cops and drivers. But my point is this; When's the last time you said anything good about a traffic cop?



Terrible idea. That will make it clear as mud what's acceptable or not. Not only does it obscure the rules, it creates hard feelings. When a user gets gigged for something 20 other people have done apparently without penalty, they feel as if they are being singled out. That pushes otherwise good members away for what may have been a trivial matter. Whatever you choose, I strongly recommend against this approach.

All that said, this is just my $0.02. I'm throwing it out there not because I don't like it, but because I think some of the provisions will hurt the forum as a whole.
 
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I hate to call you out, but going along with the "pot kettle" theory:



This is 90% of the problem as well....those complaining about infractions are the very same folks who have broken their own rules to "act like an adult" themselves.


Also, the forum you reference as being a moderator for HAS a section like the one many of us are advocating for and you yourself mentioned the same on this forum:



If KLOV had such a sub-forum, any other section would indeed require infractions for discussing things outside that sub-forum. It's a win-win as it cleans up the rest of the forum while still allowing those who enjoy adult conversation to participate as members here.

NSFW section would work.
I have no issues with the f word (and thank you for pointing that out to me) but pics and language need to be kept in a NSFW area
 
Greg - I think you missed the point of the traffic cop example. I wasn't using non-enforcement as a defense, but rather to point out that nonuniform enforcement creates ambiguity which is not what you are after.

As you can see from this debate, clearly drawn lines are your friend. Which was my argument earlier regarding the points system. It is subjective by design, and that creates ambiguity which increases your load instead of decreasing it.

Bottom line: I'd much rather have just "no F word" than "F word is ok, unless you're pissed off and/or a mod who's in a bad mood sees it, or it's Tuesday with a full moon..."
 
Please delete the quote out of that one...I changed my original post as I didn't find it relevant to the original topic, so now it's out of context.

That said, I am with you on this one...I know there is an extremely small number of kids who visit this forum and while the number is small also is another reason I advocate a separate sub forum. All other areas of the site should indeed prohibit things that while adult in nature, would be offensive to children or others.



In the immortal words of Dave Hester - "Yuuup!"

I'm giving you rep for the Dave Hester quote...drives my g/f crazy when I say it!
 
Greg - I think you missed the point of the traffic cop example. I wasn't using non-enforcement as a defense, but rather to point out that nonuniform enforcement creates ambiguity which is not what you are after.

As you can see from this debate, clearly drawn lines are your friend. Which was my argument earlier regarding the points system. It is subjective by design, and that creates ambiguity which increases your load instead of decreasing it.

Bottom line: I'd much rather have just "no F word" than "F word is ok, unless you're pissed off and/or a mod who's in a bad mood sees it, or it's Tuesday with a full moon..."

+1 on that!
we really do need an adult only section!
 
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