Indiana Jones (Williams) Vs Twilight Zone

PDXGeek

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So I have put several hours in on each of these machines, and I have to say I am just completely baffled at how Twilight Zone is seen by the community as a better game. I am usually in such strong agreement with the Pinball Community at large, but here I just don't understand what I am missing.

IJ has such better game play. All of the modes are so varied, and the game uses the entire table to its advantage. On TZ, I feel you can complete the entire game with just the left flipper. I think the only thing I like better on TZ when it comes to modes, is how you can stack them all together, though this just leads to getting lost in the zone so much faster.

When it comes to multiball, IJ still wins for me. With so many different multiball modes to complete, and the pure frantic pace of the Well Of Souls mode, I just don't think TZ has anything that compares to this.

Sounds is tough, though I think IJ gets a slight edge here just because of how the use of the plane sounds combined with the gun blasts as the ball bounces all over the lower playfield is so well done. TZ has an amazing sound track though, and that is pretty hard to compete with.

As far as the toys go, well, that is the one area that I give up to TZ. The powerball and the battle the power playfields are quite fun. Definitely cant argue that! Though the mini playfield labyrinth style on IJ is good, it gets old pretty quick, where as battling the power and the powerball are always desirable in TZ.

I found myself somewhat bored of TZ in just a week of play, but IJ still has me coming back after months. Is there some secret mode I am just missing here? What is so desirable about TZ? The machines are equivalent in price it seems, but IJ is definitely the better buy!

Curious as to what you all think about these two machines.
 
I've heard that about TZ too for the most part. Its a pin you can mod the crap out of, turn it on and just watch all the mods glow!

I like IJ more myself. AFM is a lot of fun to me too.
 
Both of those pins are easily my 2 favorites. I go back and forth all the time over which one I enjoy more. I wouldn't say there are any secret modes on TZ, but there are a couple of cool shots that I didn't know about right away. I suppose the most obvious one that I rarely shot for would be the spiral awards, lit by the far left inlane and collected by the right spiral, and the award lit above the flippers. It's a fairly simple way to reach an extra ball. Then theres's Clock Chaos, just because in theory could go on indefinitely. I honestly didn't realize until fairly recently that with each hit to the clock target, the clock changes direction. You can collects tons of points just from keeping the hour hand from reaching 12. The dead end shot through the flippers is also a tough shot that'll eventually award an extra ball. Then there's all the combos to master and also the bonus content. Here's more on those straight from Ipdb:
The Combos

Near as I can tell, there is one 2-Way Combo, seven 3-Way Combos, and four 4-Way Combos in TZ. The 2-Way Combo, called the "Gumball Combo", is Left Ramp to Right Ramp, and is only awarded when neither "Gum" nor "Ball" is lit to begin with. No score is listed on the board, but it must be worth something.

One of the 3-Way Combos is a continuation of this: Left Ramp -> Right Ramp -> Piano awards 1OM. Two combos utilise the "Lock" shot; they are Left Ramp -> "Lock" -> Camera or Hitcher. Two 3-Ways use the Combo Hole; Right Ramp -> Combo Hole -> Camera or Hitcher. Two more use the Spiral Helpers; Left Ramp -> Right Spiral (w/Helper) -> Camera or Hitcher. I think that's all there are, but considering how many exist, there may be more. All 3-Way Combos are worth 1OM.

One 4-Way Combo is Left Ramp -> Right Ramp -> Combo Hole -> Hitcher or Camera; the other is Left Ramp -> Right Spiral (no Helper) -> Combo Hole -> Hitcher or Camera. All 4-Way Combos are worth 2OM.

Most people won't notice it at first (including me), but there's a VERY simple way to hit the Combo Hole shot from the upper left flipper. As the ball comes to the flipper from the Right Spiral (moving quickly), just hold up the flipper and the ball heads straight for the Combo Hole! Obviously this depends on the particular table, and may not even have been the design idea.

Bonus Count

Bonus Count can be worth a whole heckuva lot in TZ. As with all Lawlor games, bonus is determined solely on particular shots and rounds; you won't add 1,OOO to your bonus by hitting a Jet Bumper. Bonus is calculated as

(5OOK * Hitchhikers + 5OOK * Door Prizes) * Bonus X + Special Rounds

Bonus X is lit on the Left Ramp for 5 seconds after rolling over the Right Inlane. Bonus X really isn't worth shooting for; from the inlane, it's a better idea to shoot for Dead End or the Left Spiral instead.

Special Rounds can be worth a LOT of points, pushing Bonus into the stratosphere:

Powerfield: total of all "Battle the Power" rounds - can be 7OM +
Town Square Madness round: 5OM
Clock Millions round: 7OM
Clock Chaos: 5OM
Greed: 3OM
Powerball Mania: 3OOM
for a big total of 57OM

I suppose you may have caught me on a day that I love TZ more, but don't give up on it just yet. What kinds of scores are you putting up if I may ask?

Definitely no disputing what a great game Indiana Jones is. I've often walked into my gameroom eyeballing both of them not knowing which one to approach!
 
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I've owned both but I sold the IJ a couple days after buying it and just got TZ so I can't really comment on either but I will say TZ feels like it's going to take 6 months to actually "get it". Every time I turn it on I feel like "what the hell am I supposed to be doing here". I took a look at the rules sheet and it's like a bloody trigonometry exam. I'll see how I feel in a few months...
 
I have to agree with Lindsey.

I own/have owned all the Bally/Williams "A" list games. I still have all the "A" games except IJ. I found TZ to be a players game. The less skilled pinball players tend to not like TZ. The thing about IJ is that it is a pretty game to look at especially when someone brass plates all the parts. When I had my IJ in my gameroom it was not a favorite at parties. My AFM, TAF, MB, TOM and MM were the big hits.
 
I've owned both, but I still have TZ and I only kept IJ around for a few months. Honestly, IJ is a clunky game wrapped in a very pretty package. Your shots are far more limited in IJ, the video modes lose their novelty VERY quickly in a home use setting, the mode start is in the WORST possible location, and ball times are far too long.

Twilight Zone is a fantastic pin, but you have to know what you're doing or at least what you're trying to do to enjoy it. It's a real rule lover's machine.

I think the IJ theme carries it far beyond what the gameplay would on its own. It's not a terrible game, but I don't think it's particularly great.
 
I don't like IJ but have an TZ for almost 10 years now..

If TZ bores you and you reach litz so soon, either you should with in the ifpa championships because you're such a good player, or you have it still set to extra easy..
 
*The less skilled pinball players tend to not like TZ.

If TZ bores you and you reach litz so soon, either you should with in the ifpa championships because you're such a good player, or you have it still set to extra easy..


Easy there, guys. He asked what our opinions were on the 2 machines, not to berate him for liking one over the other. Let him like what he likes.
 
I owned TZ for about a year, and have played IJ some but not enough. I have to admit that I don't quite get the TZ craze either. It's a fun game and has one of the best Williams rulesets, but compared with TSPP it's ruleset isn't nearly as good. Probably part of my problem is that I played a lot (400+ games probably) of TSPP before I played TZ. So when I got TZ, it didn't seem nearly as hard or as special to me since everything it does (other than the toy aspect and clunkiness) TSPP does better than TZ. Better modes, better multiballs, way better stacking, etc.

Back to the original question, I'm not sure if IJ is better than TZ. There aren't any games really similar to IJ in gameplay, so in that aspect it has some appeal. I feel like TZ has better overall shots and toys, but the modes and multiballs are far superior on IJ. Sound is better on Indy but I sort of like the main music on TZ better. Strategy is better on TZ as well overall. So overall, if I had no knowledge of post 2000 Stern games, I'd pick TZ probably. But with that knowledge, I'd probably pick IJ instead as there is at least one game (in my opinion) from Stern that's better than TZ.
 
I've had my TZ for a month now, have played the hell out of it and made it to Lost in the Zone twice so far. As for the rules, I feel like I am maybe halfway there to understanding everything.

My extra room only has enough space for 3 or 4 games so I knew that I would need something deep like TZ. Spent some time on it at the PHOF in Vegas and after the 2nd day decided that it's probably my favorite pin I've ever played.

Wish there was a video tutorial of sorts online, the rulesheets give you the info but sometimes have strange wording, not easy to follow.
 
I have to agree with Lindsey.

I own/have owned all the Bally/Williams "A" list games. I still have all the "A" games except IJ. I found TZ to be a players game. The less skilled pinball players tend to not like TZ. The thing about IJ is that it is a pretty game to look at especially when someone brass plates all the parts. When I had my IJ in my gameroom it was not a favorite at parties. My AFM, TAF, MB, TOM and MM were the big hits.

I think TZ is a much deeper game than IJ. TZ has so many different ways to play and different options. I much prefer TZ over IJ.

Also, no pinball game has more patents than TZ. It has a lot going on and the software is just brilliantly done.
 
I've had my TZ for over 10 years now and will never sell it. It is my favorite game. Love IJ as well but probably is 4th on my list to own. Still need TAF and MM, then IJ. I'm not a huge fan of video modes but do like the mine cart mode. The powerball, battle the power, and sounds are what put TZ on top.
 
Owned em both. Sold em both. Re bought TZ - waiting for it to be restored.

TZ is an amazing game, and is owed the title of best ever. It is so complex, yet a beginner can step up and enjoy it. It is just the complete package of art, sights, sounds and rules. My only gripe is its so frustrating - not an easy game.

IJ i really liked. Certainly a top 10 of all time. For space consideration i sold it, and, unless i can fit 7 or more Pins again, i wont consider it back. Why? Well, someone mentioned combo shots before on TZ - i wish IJ had more combos or rewards - the game has some good shots but the software just doesnt mold with it. I love most of the modes - some really annoyed me, but for the most part they are very well done.

The weakness of the game is the mode start hole. Even if you fix the kick out (it never sticks in there!) its in such an awkward and poor position it really hurts the game. The most important shot for the game and its just a weak location / shot to make. I love the ramps though - especially the steep right one. The orbits and center shot are very well done - in fact that center shot (ball lock) is one of the best in any game ive played. They shoulda made that the mode hole. The art is good - but not great. Too much yellow, doesnt feel like Indy. I like the Stern IJ4 art package better.

Both games have crap skill shots - but IJ wins on this one, the gun is cool, and its really not that bad - tz skill shot is pretty poor though.

Keep enjoying the game - try and get to the end by beating all modes!
 
Ok, let me add another dynamic to this. All the responses are interesting, but I don't think anyone makes a clear case for TZ, unless "It has a deep ruleset" counts. I dont even believe it has a deep ruleset. The jackpots are straight forward, the modes are straight forward, there is nothing complex about activating anything. Compare this to say Creature from the Black Lagoon. Now thats a ruleset lovers machine. No one in their right mind could figure out what the heck you are supposed to do on that machine without reading the guidelins, and the jackpot takes a lot of practice to get too, not to mention a 3x jackpot leading to a 3x super jackpot. TZ has nothing like that.

I don't know. I love powerball, and batteling the power, but other then that its a very repetitive game, and once again, can be played almost soley from the left flipper. I think this is what bugs me more then anything I guess. There are some definite hard shots on the game (stupid camera) but a hard shot doesnt make a game good.

IJ has very clear direction. Start modes, complete different tasks, and work towards collecting all the artifacts. There is nothing obvious in TZ. Hit slot machine, hit piano, rinse repeat. You will get extra balls just for farming ramps (too easy). The crazy thing is TZ is actually a pretty tough game at times, and its a total out lane drain whore, which I mostly despise though I cant explain why I like ST:TNG so much saying that.

Very interesting feedback so far.
 
Let's compare them directly. Here's a list of their comparable features. Feel free to add any if I've left any out.


Indiana Jones

1. No skill shot
2. 9 physical modes, 3 video modes
3. 1 mode start
4. Ramps change the modes
5. 2 ramps
6. Hand of Fate award
7. Plays vertically
8. Path of Adventure
9. 2 ball multiball/Ark, stones, grail multiball
10. No equivalent to powerball
11. Hurry-up
12. Extra ball: lighting all friends/Path of Adventure/crossing rope bridge/Hand of Fate/Raven Bar
13. Loop Jackpot
14. No combo shots
15. 6 ball eternal life wizard mode

Twilight Zone

1.Skill shot
2. 14 physical modes
3. 2 mode starts
4. Bumpers change the modes/slot picks random
mode
5. 2 ramps
6. Camera award and spiral award
7. Plays vertically, plays horizontally from left to
right, plays horizontally from right to left
8. Power playfield
9. Multiball/Powerball Mania
10. Ceramic Powerball
11. Fast Lock Hurry up (mode)
12. Extra ball: spiral award/Lite extra ball(mode)/Super skill shot/Robot ramp/dead end
13. No equivalent that I can think of
14. Combo shots
15. 6 ball Lost in the Zone wizard mode


That's about all I can think of at the moment, but for me these are already plenty of things that contribute to a worthwhile experience for both machines. And from my count, getting extra balls on Indy would happen more frequently. As for the robot ramp, I believe it's 10 ramps for the first extra ball, then 45 for the second. Shouldn't be too easy.
 
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So I have put several hours in on each of these machines, and I have to say I am just completely baffled at how Twilight Zone is seen by the community as a better game. I am usually in such strong agreement with the Pinball Community at large, but here I just don't understand what I am missing.

IJ has such better game play. All of the modes are so varied, and the game uses the entire table to its advantage. On TZ, I feel you can complete the entire game with just the left flipper. I think the only thing I like better on TZ when it comes to modes, is how you can stack them all together, though this just leads to getting lost in the zone so much faster.

When it comes to multiball, IJ still wins for me. With so many different multiball modes to complete, and the pure frantic pace of the Well Of Souls mode, I just don't think TZ has anything that compares to this.

Sounds is tough, though I think IJ gets a slight edge here just because of how the use of the plane sounds combined with the gun blasts as the ball bounces all over the lower playfield is so well done. TZ has an amazing sound track though, and that is pretty hard to compete with.

As far as the toys go, well, that is the one area that I give up to TZ. The powerball and the battle the power playfields are quite fun. Definitely cant argue that! Though the mini playfield labyrinth style on IJ is good, it gets old pretty quick, where as battling the power and the powerball are always desirable in TZ.

I found myself somewhat bored of TZ in just a week of play, but IJ still has me coming back after months. Is there some secret mode I am just missing here? What is so desirable about TZ? The machines are equivalent in price it seems, but IJ is definitely the better buy!

Curious as to what you all think about these two machines.

As weird as this sounds, TZ suffers from a bad theme to make it a top 5 game for me. I didn't mind the shows, but as the complete package, everything is there except the theme. Great rules, sounds, etc.. I would take IJ over TZ personally, but only because I have TSPP.

STTNG is another game that would easily be in my top 5 if the theme was not STTNG. For exactly the same reasons as TZ.

The theme doesn't have to be licensed, it just has to appeal to me, and TZ and STTNG just do nothing for me.
 
TZ for me. I love that it plays left, right, up and down. Plus it's so deep. Definitely my favorite game and the one that will for sure not leave my collection.

My machine is on totally factory settings and the best game I ever played I got LITZ 3 times in one game for a score of 3,600,000,000. Unfortunately my friend Greg also played an even more amazing game where he got LITZ only 2 times but got 3,900,000,000 million points.

Pretty intimidating score to shoot for but I do every time I walk up to the machine.
 
Funny, I find the TZ theme to be one of its best components, slightly better than TAF theme. A slightly dark or macabe theme makes for a good pin IMHO. BTW, did anyone see the IJ on craigslist LA today for $899? Was it fake? The listing is now gone.
 
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