I want to talk about pinball damnit

Deadly

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This thread has no real direction. In fact I'm going to go bi polar and ask you guys do the same. I will say this once - all of this rant is my own personal opinion and not to be taken as me trying to pass off fact. If you disagree that's OK! I am always up for a good debate. I also love when someone points out something I'd never considered before.

RANT ON:
Stern being referred to as "stagnant" mentioned in another thread.
Man is that an under statement. My one true regret is that I wasn't born earlier. To see pinball in it's prime when the market was hot and pinball was moving forward and Williams and the likes were innovating new ideas. Back when Stern sucked lol. It just seems most recent Stern games are recycled innovationless ideas. Anywhere from using a re-themed PF to just using the same old technology under the playfield.

I'D LOVE THIS GAME IF IT DIDN'T......:
People pay how much for a new pin to only find out the software is unfinished or buggy. Seriously - how does this happen? And Sterns stance on this is pretty much no apologies and say something to the effect of, "It's your fault you didn;t try it out before you bought it." Yeah ok .... like I'm going to be able to hunt down a new release and if I do like I'm going to drop $50 into a machine trying to figure out the rule set and determine if I like it enough to buy it.
Stern will work on a software update for a machine that is "ok" as is and leaves the F'ed up title as is. Priioroty issues? I don;t know. But the good news is the software updates (recently Batman) improved the game play and made the game become more popular which is AWESOME for Stern in it's reissued at a later date game line. But the other pins lose their popularity and become a "red headed step child". This also hurts people who make repro hardware. They would undoubtedly make money if there was a calling or need for these titles hardware.

WHAT IF STERN CLOSED IT'S DOORS?:
I asked myself, "Self ... what would it mean to you if Stern went under? Would you really care?"
I answered, "I'd feel bad for the employees."
To me, looking at what Stern puts out lately ... no ... I honestly wouldn't care. I apologize for this harsh statement. Seriously though, why should I care when the chances that the next release (Rolling Stones) is going to suck. Well I hate the Stones but that's neither here nor there. Trying to use common sense tells me it's a TERRIBLE idea. Most Stones fans are well past the point of playing pinball because they don;t go out anymore and the shits too expensive with a terrible economy they can;t afford it anyway. Kids (legal drinking age) aren't going to relate to the theme or the music. WTF Stern???? When all a person has to look forward to is a crapload of targets and pops surrounded by less than Mattel quality non interactive toys ... why would I look forward to the next pin? I could care less about the playfield standoffs used or the new lock down latches. These have ZERO to do with the fun factor and that's all I'm interested in.

Stern perplexes me. Gary Stern admits he isn;t catering to the pinheads anymore. He's more interested in cornering the home market and generating new pin blood. First of all I think that's a smart idea because there is a better chance of hooking that population VS the current pinhead population that couldn't solely keep his company afloat anyway. So he reduces cost (can;t blame him) and he puts out a new pin title. Then Stern starts to rerun proven success pins such as Batman, Spiderman and of course the infamous Lord of the Rings. Games that cost him a shit ton of money to make (in comparison to the new stuff) that cost upwards towards $2000 more than a more current disembowled NIB title? WHAT???? Doesn't care about pinheads but recycles a popular title that have a cult following lol?? Dont pinhead/collectors get pissed when Stern makes more of a popular title? Is there not an issue of devaluing? I suppose a person could argue Addams Family with manufacturing of over 10000 machines and it still is a great earner and it commands great money to purchase.

WILLIAMS OWNS WHAT?:
Tired of some pompus Ausie which I'll stay classy and not mention his name. Mosty because I don;t want this asshole suing me for deflamation of character or some other bullshit thing he would come up with. I have a family to feed and I'll assume this guy has more money than I do ;)
The pin community can't move in any direction it seems without someone screaming copyright infringement. These people get offered anything from free vectorized scans to patched roms and they want to start shit. Irritating. I've done some super sluething and the truth shall be known in short time my children. ;) But back to hurting the business' that do repro.
It's truly a domino effect. There's a lot more money to be made if certain people would allow it to happen.

In closing I'd like to say I'm not a Stern hater or a Williams fan boy.

RANT OFF:
 
Simply awesome. I couldn't have said it better myself - and I've said alot of it.

Now, I am sort of a WMS fanboy, but I appreciate a good offering from anyone. I have favorites from Sega/Data East, Gottlieb, and Stern. Iron Man is one of my favorite "new" pins, although I disagree with those that tout it as the best game ever, or on par with any of the greats. It needs to be taken with a big grain of salt, and that grain is build quality and depth of play. The first night I sat down and worked the game over, I was talking sh*t the entire time about how much of a pile of "Made In Korea" garbage it was, and how I could put my fist right through any piece of this Playskool crap (I chose Playskool, lol). The work-in-progress nature of the software throughout release and the lack of any real depth is notable. Yet I really enjoyed the experience.

Although I can sympathize with the dying industry cry and the simplification of the game overall as a result, it would seem to me that a company that truly loved the game, regardless of profit margins or stock values, would strive to produce the best product possible, and continue the longstanding tradition of pinball to attempt to one-up itself. I feel like I could run a better company myself, with no experience and very little knowledge. It's just a glorified toy company at this point. I am both sad and hopeful for the "sport" at this time. The story of Stern may appear close to an end, but the tale of pinball has many chapters left to be written.
 
Stern will continue to build "like" machines with having the same owner and designers. They definately need a fresh perspective here as most have mentioned. I would like to see them make a machine with 2-3 ramps, lcd screen and different challenging modes. However, it's tough now for most people to pay $4,500 for a new one. If they priced their machine to cover costs of fancy upgrades, it would be $6,000 + of which they would sell even less.

I would like to see stern improve their games, but they have to make money to survive and in a business it is always about the money.
 
I think it would be neat to see them to release a new game that has an older feel. Come up with a neat layout and a good unique theme and I think it would be great. They could eliminate the DMD and other fancy toys and just go back to what it really is all about. But of course they will need to think of something new to keep us interested.

I would think this would drive the cost down considerably.
 
Apparently Marsaplay is working on their next machine design already, after New Canasta, and the rumors I heard are that they are amping up the complexity of the machine for the next release. New Canasta was, apparently, just a developmental machine to get the manufacturing and design experience before committing to something more involved.

I hope that's true, and I hope we get a US distributor of them.

Stern, Williams, whatever..... I don't care WHO makes them, as long as they make them right and I start seeing them around again.

-Hans
 
I really don't get all the STERN negativity. Consider the following:

1) There are more people on food stamps right now as a percentage of total population than in the history of the program going back to 1969. Put simply, the economy is in the toilet and very few people/businesses, can spend 4500+ on a "toy", particularly with such a risky ROI as pinball.

2) The price of copper and gasoline has gone up considerably. For a while the costs were "bubbly" but have since corrected some. Still, we're talking +30% over five years ago. Building a pin, having parts shipped to the factory from suppliers, and then shipping a pin to its final destination - all these costs have gone up. Just to keep the cost of the final product the same, something has to be cut.

3) Because of the economy, the used market is very strong. People are out of work and selling games to pay the rent. Others took advantage of all that "free money" from their house/piggy bank to build a game room. Now they're broke and that $1400 game they paid $3000 for in 2006 is back on the market at $1k.

We are really in a pork'n'beans time right now and I just don't understand why people still complain there's no prime rib.
 
i first played pinball with my dad around age 5. i have loved it ever since. im 44 now i remember playing only em games. early ss games etc.the thing that bothers me the most is the loss of any original designs.now all the games are based on movies,tv,or bands. the back glass and playfield are photos. where is the original artwork i fell in love with as a kid?
look back at gottlieb,their games were classic works of art to me. then after a big corperate buyout their machines were reduced to rip off pics loosly based on tv and movies. they could not even have the class to purchase the rights to the real deal.
just like the movie bizz, i say to the pinball maker. get an ORIGINAL IDEA! we pinheads will buy it. just my 2 cents worth.
 
i first played pinball with my dad around age 5. i have loved it ever since. im 44 now i remember playing only em games. early ss games etc.the thing that bothers me the most is the loss of any original designs.now all the games are based on movies,tv,or bands. the back glass and playfield are photos. where is the original artwork i fell in love with as a kid?
look back at gottlieb,their games were classic works of art to me. then after a big corperate buyout their machines were reduced to rip off pics loosly based on tv and movies. they could not even have the class to purchase the rights to the real deal.
just like the movie bizz, i say to the pinball maker. get an ORIGINAL IDEA! we pinheads will buy it. just my 2 cents worth.

My sentiments exactly. There is something to be said for original ideas and designs.

The same applies to children's toys today. If you look in Wal-mart or Target, almost every toy is licensed from a movie or TV show. The only exception that jumps out to me is Lego. Yes, Lego has a lot of licensed stuff, but they also have a fair amount of original stuff. I'm not trying to get off topic, but my first real wake up to this was when I visited a place close to me: Moon Marble Company. http://www.moonmarble.com/ It is more than just a marble store, it is actually a toy store, but they focus on the older type of toys. My jaw dropped when I walked in and saw cap guns for sale. Cap guns, wow!! The type I used to play with as a kid that used the red paper roll caps and the red plastic ring caps. I haven't seen a cap gun for sale for decades.

Anyway, I agree. Bring back some originality, people still appreciate it and want it.
 
today its just big business,back in the day,pinball makers,like every other craftsman made their machines with passion,it was a labor of love. now its just product.
 
The only reason it appears like stern hating is they are the only game in town. I agree 100000% about original themes but I also understand that stern feels licensed themes are a more sure deal. A person can argue that by listinh wheel of fortune or monopoly. They didn't sell so well. Wof just sucks because stern decided to release a game with unfinished software.

Yes the economy is in the toilet and stern can only cut so much cost. I'm a realist and clealry stern is doing something right? Maybe the good ole days are long gone and we need to accept the days and kick ass pinball is long gone. That's the problem with me.....I don't want to accept it. With stern aiming at the home user, does he believe every game with 3 pops, two flipper and a crapload of targets is enough variety? Maybe it is.... I'm just depressed and confused about the whole deal.

I would gladly pay $5500 for a title that was mind blowing gotta have it. I always refer back to gene at ipb. If he can take pre orders on a title why can't stern? Stern wants a sure deal how much more sure can paid pre orders be? I will say I'm eternally grateful that there are many great bally/williams games out there and a few sterns that I can/would buy. Enough to call my personal collection complete. I just fear the end of pinball is near and I don't like it.
 
it will never die as long as you,me and every other pinball lover out there is fighting to keep pinball alive. remember,we have the all mighty dollar in our pocket. there are more of us then them. lets e-mail stern. lets pool our money/resources and start our own company. the ideas are endless. my point,it cant die if we wont let it.keep the faith brothers.
play pinball,keep america strong.
 
The only reason it appears like stern hating is they are the only game in town. I agree 100000% about original themes but I also understand that stern feels licensed themes are a more sure deal. A person can argue that by listinh wheel of fortune or monopoly. They didn't sell so well. Wof just sucks because stern decided to release a game with unfinished software.

Yes the economy is in the toilet and stern can only cut so much cost. I'm a realist and clealry stern is doing something right? Maybe the good ole days are long gone and we need to accept the days and kick ass pinball is long gone. That's the problem with me.....I don't want to accept it. With stern aiming at the home user, does he believe every game with 3 pops, two flipper and a crapload of targets is enough variety? Maybe it is.... I'm just depressed and confused about the whole deal.

I would gladly pay $5500 for a title that was mind blowing gotta have it. I always refer back to gene at ipb. If he can take pre orders on a title why can't stern? Stern wants a sure deal how much more sure can paid pre orders be? I will say I'm eternally grateful that there are many great bally/williams games out there and a few sterns that I can/would buy. Enough to call my personal collection complete. I just fear the end of pinball is near and I don't like it.

I hear you. My favorite game, and the one that got me into pinball, is Twilight Zone. I don't see STERN doing a game like TZ any time soon, with all the toys, features, etc. Can they make a game as fun? I think the economy and the general reception to pinball in the coin-op world will force them, or die. "Do with less, or do without."

I grew up on vids in the 80s and 90s, and still love them. However, when I go into an arcade today I almost don't recognize the place. They're all "instant entertainment" games. They're all clean and sanitized with day-glo decals of Hannah Montana plastered on the walls. It's corporate and calculated.

Where are the old, dark, seedy arcades of my youth? Where's the guy that ran the place that hated us kids? Even the "shady" characters back then added some atmosphere I sort of miss. It was like we were taking a bit of risk just to play back then.

But times change, tastes change. I don't like most music these days - I miss Seattle Sound of the early 90s. I bet some of you who are older miss the rock or the funk of the 70s, when rock "was true and honest".

So, yeah, it may not be our cup of tea, but I give credit to STERN for at least trying a few new approaches to the game to entice players and grow the market. Time will tell if it's a mis-shot, a low period, or the death nail.

And likewise, potential future owners should do what potential owners do: buy on the merit of the game or not. It's not charity. If the game is worth buying, you but it. If it's not, you don't. That is the most honest criticism you can offer.
 
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