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zukesofhazzard

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I just got in an arguement over how pinball is a game of skill and not a game of luck. I agree, pinball has a level of just plain luck, and the game was designed to take your money, but skill will win every time. I also understand that there are certain variables that must be considered between different machines, but overall if you have skill, it will prevail. I say the unpredictability and challenge of a pinball machine is what drives us to play more and become a better player from pure skill. The other side says that it is a game of chance and cannot be completely mastered due to such things as pop bumpers and sling shot bumpers. I say that the ball will become unpredictable only if you dont posses the skill to keep the ball from striking such things in an uncontrolled manner. Whats your take?
 
It's both.. not 100% skill, theres allways some luck involved (ie with pop bumpers), but there's enough skill involved so it's not a passive game of luck.
So from all other amusement/gambling games (slots, bingo, pachislo), pinball has the highest level of skill.

Top players can make it like a 99% game of skill, especially if the game has a layout with a ramp that nicely feeds the ball back to the flippers.. it'll be a boring game, alway shooting the ramp over and over, but then you don't have any luck involved..

Even when a pinball comes out of the bumpers in a certain way, often you can nudge it towards a position when you can control it again.

The best way to win such arguments it so look up videos (youtube ?) of top pinball players that can play for half an hour or more and score every possible jackpot.
If pinball was really a game of luck they could not do this - as every player would have a game that lasts on average as long as another and score about the same points;
That's how slots work, they are games of luck, if you drop a coin you have as much chance to win as another person that drops a coin.
 
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pinball is a game of skill. i don't even understand why this would be a question.
 
It's simple, really. All you have to do is look to the progression of pinball. The early days of pinball had machines which were flipperless; you sent the ball on its merry way and hoped you scored some major points. Yes you could nudge it and hope to avoid some things but basically it was still a game of luck or "chance". Why do you think they were considered a form of gambling?

When flippers were introduced, they added direct player control/intervention thereby taking some of the luck out of the game and replacing it with some skill. Take that a step farther where you have to complete things in a certain sequence to gain major points.

Now, how about those players that can perform saves or make the same shot time after time? What about catching or cradling the ball with the flipper?

If that is not skill, I don't know what is.
 
It is both, but as you say, skill predominates. Have them watch Bowen's videos. It is hard to argue that skill doesn't predominate after watching them. Don't use Flash Gordon as an initial example though, it hands him his ass the first couple of games. Once they understand how important skill is, the Flash Gordon video shows how important skill is.

And it also depends on what their definition of "master" is. If "master" to them means completing a wizard mode every time you play, then you are in a losing argument. Tiger Woods doesn't ace every par 3, is he not skilled? Golf must just be a game of chance by their definition, there are too many variables and unknowns to make it a game of skill. ;)

Edit: Bowen's videos: http://vimeo.com/user4577902/videos/sort:newest
 
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Pinball is a game of luck AND skill. If that were not true then tournaments would go on forever. There is too much variability in the game to be pure skill. A flipper is not going to have exactly the same power on every shot, for example. Even in a brand new game. It will be too close to see in many cases but it's still not 100% consistent. There's no point in arguing because you're both wrong ;)

EDIT: I had an argument on here a couple years back with someone who insisted that pinball and video games had the same level of variability and with practice you could play forever. Much like a perfect Pac-Man game. While that may be true of a small percentage of games it's definitely not true overall.
 
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This thread has turned into a fucking beer commercial:
Less filling - tastes great.

It's both you mooks.
Skill is involved right? If you want a high score or want to beat the game.

Luck:
Let's say you have a ball go screaming towards an outlane and you stand there and watch the ball bobble around between inlane and outlane posts (50/50 chance) and it pops back out. You did nothing to cause the ball to come back into play which means you got LUCKY.
 
This thread has turned into a fucking beer commercial:
Less filling - tastes great.

This must be bizzaro day because we are agreeing on everything. I was thinking the exact same thing. haha!

If someone tried to challenge my reply I was going to reply with:

TASTES GREAT!!
 
The skill or luck is kind of split in my eyes. With older EM games high scores usually = longest ball time. Keep it in play and your racking up points. The newer DMD games with deeper rule sets definatley favor people that learn the rules and can accurately shoot the ball. Learning the rules and shooting well = big points. Both can be fun to play but going for points only does not always mean the most fun games.

There is definately skilled involved and required to get big scores but there is an elemet of luck also.
 
Pinball is purely a game of skill BUT the ball is wild. It's like basketball in that if you practice control your shot percentage will go way up and you can predict where the ball should be at most times, but once in a while some odd bounce is going to send you into a fight for control again.
 
Here's your pinball history lesson for the day: In 1942, pinball machines were deemed gambling devices and made illegal in New York City, prompting police to seize and destroy some 3000 machines. That law was reversed, according to the NYT, "in 1976, when a 26-year old pinball wizard named Roger Sharpe predicted - and made - a predetermined shot in a courtroom, thus proving that pinball was not, in fact, a game of chance."

Those who say it's luck have no skill ;)

Chris
 
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