Hard Drives, CD disc and compact flash —what can replace what?

72gto

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Over the years I have purchased games — ones originally equipped with mechanical hard drives — converted to compact flash and I've even converted a few to compact flash myself with detailed instructions found here on the forums. However where hard discs can be replaced with compact flash, it doesn't appear that CF can be used in the same way to replace cd drives.

In my case I've got a DDR cabinet that runs program from a CD rom. I've replaced the CD drive twice so far. Now the second is also failing and fails to boot the game about half the time. I reasoned that because ROM data is data (just on a different device to be portable) I'll just replace the CD rom with a flash drive with and a IDE converter and image the files to that. Shouldn't matter the device so long as the files are there (I thought).

Evidently however it's not that simple. I'm not an engineer but could someone explain why it can't easily be done? If laser disc images can be converted to compact flash like Dexter, what's so complicated about having a simple solution to replace a mechanical CD drive? Surely now ancient CD ROMs are going to be failing more and more. To my thinking it doesn't make sense to keep putting obsolete and increasingly more unreliable mechanical equipment in.

So the questions I pose are;

(1) Since the pcb is only reading why can't compact flash be used in place of a CD rom?

(2) what is different about a hard drive in contrast to cd rom drive that doesn't make compact flash plug and play in the case of cd rom replacement whereas it is exactly that easy with a hard disk?

(3) how are others dealing with this problem of failing cd rom drives?

(4) If someone has found solutions or work around (in simple terms please) what equipment and strategy works best?

Thanks all!
 
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Over the years I have purchased games — ones originally equipped with mechanical hard drives — converted to compact flash and I've even converted a few to compact flash myself with detailed instructions found here on the forums. However where hard discs can be replaced with compact flash, it doesn't appear that CF can be used in the same way to replace cd drives.

In my case I've got a DDR cabinet that runs program from a CD rom. I've replaced the CD drive twice so far. Now the second is also failing and fails to boot the game about half the time. I reasoned that because ROM data is data (just on a different device to be portable) I'll just replace the CD rom with a flash drive with the an IDE converter and image the files.

Evidently however it's not that simple. I'm not an engineer but could someone explain why it can't be done? If laser disc images can be converted to compact flash like Dexter, what's so complicated about having a simple solution to replace a mechanical drive? Surely now ancient CD ROMs are going to be failing more and more. To my thinking it doesn't make sense to keep putting obsolete and increasingly more unreliable mechanical equipment in.

So the questions I pose are;

(1) Since the pcb is only reading why can't compact flash be used in place of a CD rom?

(2) what is different about a hard drive or cd rom drive that doesn't make it plug and play in the case of cd rom replacement whereas it is that easy with a hard disk?

(3) how are others dealing with this problem of failing cd rom drives?

(4) If someone has found solutions or work around (in simple terms please) what equipment and strategy works best?

Thanks all!

Subscribed -- questions I need answered as well as I also have a DDR and other machines with mechanical drives
 
Over the years I have purchased games — ones originally equipped with mechanical hard drives — converted to compact flash and I've even converted a few to compact flash myself with detailed instructions found here on the forums. However where hard discs can be replaced with compact flash, it doesn't appear that CF can be used in the same way to replace cd drives.

In my case I've got a DDR cabinet that runs program from a CD rom. I've replaced the CD drive twice so far. Now the second is also failing and fails to boot the game about half the time. I reasoned that because ROM data is data (just on a different device to be portable) I'll just replace the CD rom with a flash drive with and a IDE converter and image the files to that. Shouldn't matter the device so long as the files are there (I thought).

Evidently however it's not that simple. I'm not an engineer but could someone explain why it can't easily be done? If laser disc images can be converted to compact flash like Dexter, what's so complicated about having a simple solution to replace a mechanical CD drive? Surely now ancient CD ROMs are going to be failing more and more. To my thinking it doesn't make sense to keep putting obsolete and increasingly more unreliable mechanical equipment in.

So the questions I pose are;

(1) Since the pcb is only reading why can't compact flash be used in place of a CD rom?

(2) what is different about a hard drive in contrast to cd rom drive that doesn't make compact flash plug and play in the case of cd rom replacement whereas it is exactly that easy with a hard disk?

(3) how are others dealing with this problem of failing cd rom drives?

(4) If someone has found solutions or work around (in simple terms please) what equipment and strategy works best?

Thanks all!

While they share identical interfaces connecting them to a PC, CDROM drives and hard disk drives use different data structure formats. CDs are usually in ISO9660 or later UDF format with a number of smaller changes and even breaks in the format to accommodate music and data on the same disc. Hard Disk drives have nearly a dozen formats in which the data is placed on the physical disk including FAT-ExFAT, HFS, EXT1-4 etc.

The best thing you can do at this point would be to hoard CDROM drives, share and document which ones are compatible with your setup.
 
Thanks Don for chiming in. I'm (sort of ) following. But when I plug in a CF in place of a hard drive it's also not formatted first. To my knowledge the data is just written onto the CF from the hard drive image inclusive of the formatting, is that not right? The logic just thinks it's talking to the same mechanical hard drive.

So while your explanation about format makes perfect sense, I'm confused why the image wouldn't have the correct cd rom formatting that it's expecting to see from the copied CD rom image. It did exactly that for the HD. It did for HD replacement doing literally nothing else (unless I suppose if the CF itself was already formatted in the manner of a HD and I just didn't know it).

Is the logic asking for some sort of particular address or credential that the device needs to give apart from the image it contains? Can someone help me understand better why there couldn't be simple way to create the cd rom format on the CF? I don't have that knowledge or expertise but I can't imagine it would be that difficult to fool the logic into talking to the CF in place of the cd to get exactly the same files as held by the disc media itself when the CD rom drive is spinning.
 
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I'll also head off a tiny tidbit of info before this thread might detour. I learned from a private discussion with another member that there is a non mechanical product that clones a CD rom.

See here-


Unfortunately they are sold out. But even this solution makes much more sense to me than hoarding cd drives. ( I enjoy this hobby but I've already got too much on my plate than to add scouring Craigslist and eBay to buy ten year old computers to create a new pile of cd rom drives. Even today I'm repairing (trying to) three of my machines—none on location 🫤
 
I'm (sort of ) following. But when I plug in a CF in place of a hard drive it's also not formatted first. To my knowledge the data is just written onto the CF from the hard drive image inclusive of the formatting, is that not right? The logic just thinks it's talking to the same mechanical hard drive.

So while your explanation about format makes perfect sense, I'm confused why the image wouldn't have the correct cd rom formatting that it's expecting to see from the copied CD rom image. It did exactly that for the HD. It did for HD replacement doing literally nothing else (unless I suppose if the CF itself was already formatted in the manner of a HD and I just didn't know it).

Is the logic asking for some sort of particular address or credential that the device needs to give apart from the image it contains? Can someone help me understand better why there couldn't be simple way to create the cd rom format on the CF? I don't have that knowledge or expertise but I can't imagine it would be that difficult to fool the logic into talking to the CF in place of the cd to get exactly the same files as held by the disc media itself when the CD rom drive is spinning.

Compact Flash is just an abbreviation of the IDE/PATA/Parallel ATA format. The problem here is that modern PC hardware can boot from USB, negating the need for any costly cdrom emulator hardware. All of this has been achieved via software (In BIOS) for years now. The IDE Simulator you posted is indeed a viable solution but with cost and stock issues, it makes this virtually impossible at the moment.

Your best bet in the short term is to head to some of the PC/Tech enthusiasts forums like HardForum, TechPowerUp and AnanTech. Sign up to their forums and explain the situation to them. There are literally thousands of guys on each forum that hoards old PC tech and many of which who would probably just hook you up with a compatible (or help you find a compatible drive) CDROM merely for the cost of shipping.
 
Or you could look at the problem. (This is going way back in my PC knowledge)

Discs are formatted to specific cluster sizes. The smaller the cluster, the slower retrieval is but the more data you can fit on a drive. e.g., 2K (2 thousand bit) clusters, 8k clusters, 16k clusters, 32k clusters.

I suspect you are finding cluster compatibility issues between the CF card and the CD ROM.

I think CD roms still write to clusters. So do CF cards.

If you match the clusters, I think it should work if you can transfer the drive image.

The connectors are the same, so it has to be something in the write /seek setup. At least, that is what I think.
 
Or you could look at the problem. (This is going way back in my PC knowledge)

Discs are formatted to specific cluster sizes. The smaller the cluster, the slower retrieval is but the more data you can fit on a drive. e.g., 2K (2 thousand bit) clusters, 8k clusters, 16k clusters, 32k clusters.

I suspect you are finding cluster compatibility issues between the CF card and the CD ROM.

I think CD roms still write to clusters. So do CF cards.

If you match the clusters, I think it should work if you can transfer the drive image.

The connectors are the same, so it has to be something in the write /seek setup. At least, that is what I think.

Not even the CDROM Simulator hardware 72gto mentioned does this. It basically just parses an ISO or cdrwin style Bin/Cue set and mounts them as a real compact disc.
 
Evidently at least this product purports to do it. (Again sold out). I have no experience with it and haven't even heard of it before now. It would work for a number of namco and Konami products if it works with 573.

 
Evidently at least this product purports to do it. (Again sold out). I have no experience with it and haven't even heard of it before now. It would work for a number of namco and Konami products if it works with 573.


it's literally the same product from the first link you posted.
 
Evidently however it's not that simple. I'm not an engineer but could someone explain why it can't easily be done? If laser disc images can be converted to compact flash like Dexter, what's so complicated about having a simple solution to replace a mechanical CD drive? Surely now ancient CD ROMs are going to be failing more and more. To my thinking it doesn't make sense to keep putting obsolete and increasingly more unreliable mechanical equipment in.
Laserdiscs are analog, so Dexter's digital format is not a "perfect" copy, it is just close enough that the video looks very close when played back on a CRT.
 
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