Forget ZVG, AAE is a great Multi-Vector

taylormadelv

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There's been a spike of interest in the ZVG vectormame stuff as of late. I always read these posts with some frustation. The ZVG card is no longer sold and they have no plans on making anymore. It's awesome that someone took the time to tweak this to work in Windows but the way I see this, it's for a privileged few who bought the board when they could and have a vector monitor for the display. So for many people, the ZVG is a dead end until they produce more. Here's where AAE steps in.
AAE is a vector game emulator, it is not mame. It takes more CPU power and a good, current graphics card to run properly. It took me several tries to get AAE to run but I finally got it to run smoothly!
http://pages.suddenlink.net/aae/
One guy has made this and this is the biggest weakness, he has not updated things for awhile and noone else can work on it. BUT...
I have been able to tweak the very detailed visual controls and have gotten some spectacular results! On my nice bright CRT, I can get most vector games to look almost original. I get glows and trails from the phosphors on the CRT being so bright, not a "computerized" effect. Tempest, Space Duel, Major Havoc and Star Wars look amazing! You have to see it in person to appreciate, just like a real vector monitor. Armor Attack and Star Castle look awesome with the overlays.
You can't add/subtract games so Cosmic Chasm is not included, yet.
You can go to the byoac forums and read about it more...
 
I have seen both.

No comparison. No matter how good AAE is, the monitor is the bottleneck. You just cannot reproduce the Vector monitor.
 
You probably didn't play with the visual controls and if the (CRT) monitor you saw didn't look close, they didn't tweak it enough. It will not look great "out of the box". Forget an LCD.
It takes alot of work to make the games look right. It sounds like whatever you saw wasn't worked on hard enough. It'll never be as bright as a real vector monitor but Space Duel looked as good or better than the original WG6100 I had in the cab. I expect to get flamed by klovers for any emulation being mentioned here but this really is exceptional. The ZVG is a dead end to me, period. It's easy to dismiss something that has not been seen running in person properly. Congrats to those that have one of the few ZVG boards out there, for the rest of us there's AAE. Please continue the discussion...
 
I played with AAE for quite a while, and had things looking very good. Armor Attack, Star Castle, etc. with the overlays looked very nice.

Until, I looked at them on a real vector monitor. To me, there really is no comparison. My main complaint, is the "blackness" of the black areas. On real vector monitors, that area is indeed black. On anything else, including CRTs, there is some lighting there, and it is not true black.

I find that even running a monochrome game, like Star Castle, on a color vector monitor (using the ZVG) looks much better than AAE.

I think AAE is a great emulator, and does some cool stuff, but to me there is no emulating a true vector monitor.
 
You probably didn't play with the visual controls and if the (CRT) monitor you saw didn't look close, they didn't tweak it enough. It will not look great "out of the box". Forget an LCD.
It takes alot of work to make the games look right. It sounds like whatever you saw wasn't worked on hard enough. It'll never be as bright as a real vector monitor but Space Duel looked as good or better than the original WG6100 I had in the cab. I expect to get flamed by klovers for any emulation being mentioned here but this really is exceptional..

No flames, but please post videos of both if you have the ability to show the AAE version compared to the original....
 
Until, I looked at them on a real vector monitor. To me, there really is no comparison. My main complaint, is the "blackness" of the black areas. On real vector monitors, that area is indeed black. On anything else, including CRTs, there is some lighting there, and it is not true black.

That's not possible with any arcade vector monitors ever made. The "black" that you see while playing the game is the exact same color as the screen when turned off, and none of them were black. Look at this picture. The monitor screen is gray.

However, there are some things you can do to increase the "blackness" of the "black" you see on a gray CRT. The easiest thing to do is to play at night with the lights off. Total darkness makes everything black by definition, including you, the floor, the ceiling ... everything. When the game is turned on, it will be the only source of light (and a small source of concentrated light at that), so things will still remain quite black, including the unlit portions of the screen.

Another method is to place dark-tinted glass or plexi in front of the screen (many arcade machine manufacturers did this). This works to a certain extent even in broad daylight. Newer CRTs are made almost black for this very reason.

There is no difference in "black" capabilities between raster CRT and vector CRT displays. If you have a CRT PC monitor, set the desktop to black and hide all your icons and the taskbar (or use whatever method you want to make the screen entirely black, such as setting the screensaver to "blank"). Now, with the screen completely blank/"black", turn your monitor off, watching the screen closely as you do so. You will see that there is zero change in appearance.

I'm guessing that you're confusing the brighter lit portions of a vector display for blacker blacks, because that creates a greater contrast, and thus the illusion of blacker blacks.
 
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I have been close to buying a ZVG several times.. always the second one in line!

I agree AAE looks better than MAME and has nice vector theme menu, but it doesn't compare.

I have a Asteroids Deluxe and Tempest. The B&W monitor in the AD just blows away a regular CRT

A 6100 can be almost matched with a crt. I'm not sure about Amplifone though

No replacing the chatter of the vector monitors either!!!

All said and done thought.. I will probably build a multi vector with a CRT and AAE until I can buy a ZVG
 
That's not possible with any arcade vector monitors ever made. The "black" that you see while playing the game is the exact same color as the screen when turned off, and none of them were black. Look at this picture. The monitor screen is gray.

However, there are some things you can do to increase the "blackness" of the "black" you see on a gray CRT. The easiest thing to do is to play at night with the lights off. Total darkness makes everything black by definition, including you, the floor, the ceiling ... everything. When the game is turned on, it will be the only source of light (and a small source of concentrated light at that), so things will still remain quite black, including the unlit portions of the screen.

Another method is to place dark-tinted glass or plexi in front of the screen (many arcade machine manufacturers did this). This works to a certain extent even in broad daylight. Newer CRTs are made almost black for this very reason.

There is no difference in "black" capabilities between raster CRT and vector CRT displays. If you have a CRT PC monitor, set the desktop to black and hide all your icons and the taskbar (or use whatever method you want to make the screen entirely black, such as setting the screensaver to "blank"). Now, with the screen completely blank/"black", turn your monitor off, watching the screen closely as you do so. You will see that there is zero change in appearance.

I'm guessing that you're confusing the brighter lit portions of a vector display for blacker blacks, because that creates a greater contrast, and thus the illusion of blacker blacks.

I guess what I should have said is

"To me, there really is no comparison. My main complaint, is the "blackness" of the black areas. On real vector monitors, that area APPEARS black. On anything else, including CRTs, there is some lighting there, and does not APPEAR as black."

In any event, this contrast and "illusion" of blacker blacks is what does it for me.

-- Bruce
 
Until, I looked at them on a real vector monitor. To me, there really is no comparison. My main complaint, is the "blackness" of the black areas. On real vector monitors, that area is indeed black. On anything else, including CRTs, there is some lighting there, and it is not true black.
Funny, I have no problems "crushing" the blacks on AAE. I can make the "black" parts of the screen (used and unused) pitch black. There are so many visual controls dedicated just for "brightness"; brightness, contrast, gamma and monitor gain all funtion wonerfully. You see, if I crank up the brightness and the contrast at the same time, I can make the vectors super bright and the background screen pitch black. "Bullet glow" is more complicated and takes a little compromise to get to look real nice, the secret is the point size vs line width of the vector.
I don't have a video camera right now and the screen shots just don't do it justice. There is a short clip of AAE on youtube but it dosen't really show just how cool it is and the clips are edited too fast.
Peeps can slam on AAE all they want but it's not a "dead end" until Tim (the creator) decides to stop working on it. It still needs work and I'm hoping some more people will try it to get some more momentum for a non "dead end" vector game arcade emulator.
 
No replacing the chatter of the vector monitors either!!!
Actually, that has been accounted for and emulated in the sound controls!
Tim worked really hard on this, I just wonder why he hasn't posted an update in so long.
 
I am not slamming AAE. I have seen both in action, side by side, and there is no comparison. None.

Having said that, if I didn't have a ZVG with no option to get one (you can get them if you are willing to pay) then an AAE setup is great. But again, it just does not compare to a real vector.
 
I am not slamming AAE. I have seen both in action, side by side, and there is no comparison. None.

Having said that, if I didn't have a ZVG with no option to get one (you can get them if you are willing to pay) then an AAE setup is great. But again, it just does not compare to a real vector.

I feel exactly the same way -- AAE is great. There is just no comparison to a real vector monitor.
 
I would also like to see some screen shots and video.

I don't think the comparison would work video photo or video since the device you'd be viewing it on can't get as bright as a vector display. No consumer displays that I know of van pull off the brightness/contrast of the asteroids bullets, for instance.

I have seen HDR prototype displays that could pull it off, but I don't know when those will hit the market.
 
I don't think the comparison would work video photo or video since the device you'd be viewing it on can't get as bright as a vector display. No consumer displays that I know of van pull off the brightness/contrast of the asteroids bullets, for instance.

I have seen HDR prototype displays that could pull it off, but I don't know when those will hit the market.


True I watched the Youtube vid and could not tell. I think I agree with Shilmover. If you cant find a ZVG this might be a good way to go. But Zvg's are out there if you want to pay. I know I just picked one up. So I will be using a 6100 monitor.:cool:
 
I knew this thread would sir the pot a bit! This thread got the responses I was expecting! But now it's only possible to buy a ZVG used from an individual, it's almost like searching for a 30 year old vector cabinet...it may happen eventually but I won't/can't hold my breath for this. If I run into one, I will buy it and attempt to get it working with Windows.
I never said AAE was indistinguishable from a true vector game, I said that I could get it to look very close and of course the controls can takes things above and beyond if you choose to. The games look really, really cool right through the original Atari tinted glass, especially Tempest. I have the Clays Multi-Tempest working and it looks so cool! Now I have to install a spinner and keep posting all over the place on byoac so Tim (the creator) includes Cosmic Chasm and greater spinner senisitivity in the next release. BTW I don't completely like what was done with Asteroids and Asteroids Deluxe, I think Tim may have gotten a bit carried away with bullet and explosion glows/trails.
And for those that dismiss this by saying "it's not even close", I call that bogus, since it may have been viewed on an LCD monitor and not been tweaked properly to look right. It really takes work to make the games look awesome, they look just ok "out of the box". The system configuration is also an issue, especially the graphics card. Each game needs its' own visual settings to look really good, they won't look as good side to side to a real vector but by themselves, most of the games look really good.
 
OK... I have to add my 2c on this one.....

I use a NEC Multisinc FE2111SB (Super bright). In normal mode, it looks great. When I turned the super bright on...... GOSH DAMN!!!!!!!! I almost fell out of my chair. The blacks stay black, and the colors light up the room! This is as close as you will ever get without a real vector monitor. It is so bright, the diagonals are as smooth as the straights. No stair steps! I got this 21" CRT for FREE off Craigs List from a graphics design house that replaced them with others. I run dual 21" CRTs with a ViewSonic G810-2 sitting next to it. No comparison!! After seeing AAE on my NEC, I can safely say, I am happy without a ZV cab. I would love to find another NEC locally to have matching ones. WOW!
 
Interesting Idea

Thanks for the original post -- at first I thought you were crazy, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes ... I always compared the AAE display on an LCD vs. a Vector Monitor, and of course, the AAE on LCD is lacking. After all, the worst part about LCDs are the black levels and contrast ratio -- the two things vector monitors are best at.

But on a CRT, *with color vectors*, I believe AAE could do a very nice job. After all, the 6100 is not known for it's razor sharpness ;)

Please post some pictures - I'd love to see it in action.

P.S. - I will hold out on B/W vector games on a Vector Monitor... There's just no way anything could compare to that !

P.P.S - BTW, don't give up on ever buying a new ZVG -- I think Zonn has some blanks left ...
 
Talormadelv,

Good to know you have played around with this some more. I love both emulation and original hardware. And while original hardware has its place, I believe it is also important to experiment with new technology and keep pushing the envelope. You never know what cool and exciting things will come of it.

I played with AAE a long time ago, but have not kept up with it due to other projects and distractions.

Can you give us some details of what you did to tweak the visual controls?

Also, can you let us know what kind of equipment you are using?

I would like to experiment on my equipment and it would be great to have something to go by.
 
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I had a custom rig built specifically to run just AAE only. AAE had graphics card compatability issues that I couldn't afford to get messed up. So I had a buddy try different computers with different graphics cards to get it to run real smooth. This actually took two different tries over several months. He finally got a P4 2.4 with 2 GB ram with an ATI Radeon 9550 on Windows XP to run pretty smooth. There were budget limitations but there ain't no way you can do a "boat anchor computer" AAE rig, not happening.
I have it running to a Gateway VX900, which is a perfect fit inside the Gravitar cab. The settings are set pretty bright and I had it previous optimized for a macmame. I have three Gravitar cabs right now, 1 original, 1 a Black Widow and this one which was converted to a Space Duel and I made it AAE.
A real Space Duel cabinet will be easier to work with because of the monitor shelf, I didn't expect to end up with this converted Gravitar.
Anyways, after the equipment you have to take the time to find/load the roms and smooth out the games.
The brightness can be cranked very high.
To compensate for the black background, the contrast needs to be increased at the same time.
I use no vector glow and little if any vector trail.
The line width and point size adjustments are a matter of personal taste. I get bullets to "glow" in Gravitar by increasing the point size but this effects the line size. I can get it very close but Gravitar will never be perfect.
That's why I have a real Gravitar. ;)
I can make Space Duel look perfect.
Major Havoc looks perfect. And spinner sensitivity is perfect for MH.
Space Fury and Eliminator look awesome!
Star Wars looks amazing but AAE does not accept joystick controls.
The overlays in Armor Attack and Star Castle look great.
I personally don't like what was done with the Asteroids games, just a matter of taste, really.
Black Widow looks terrible, the aspect ratio is way off but doesn't matter to me since I have a dedicated BW.
The Tempest games look really cool. Even though they have to be turned to play horizonal, they look awesome. Spinner input needs help.
There's a place on the game list for vector breakout and the Clays Tempest Multigame.
Cosmic Chasm is NOT on the list and someone would have to hack the program to add it until a new version is released.
Can't imagine that Quantum will ever get played seriously on this.
The tab controls allow for game hacks, which means that all the Tempest levels can be accessed, if you choose to.
You can assign only 1 key to a command, so true key "shifting" is needed for esc and enter commands, a la ipac.
I just wish Cosmic Chasm could be added, it would seal the deal on installing a spinner.
When I contacted ZVG, I was told they do not have anything to sell and have no plans on making more. That's what I was told.
 
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