For Sale / Wanted Sections - Additional guidelines (draft)

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Seems fair to me.
Seems easy enough to follow. I like it.
(clapping image)
Seems easy enough to follow. I like it.
:thumbs_up::headbang::thrasher::tee:Love all the smilies too, thank you. :pepsi:


Thank you for your comments and support

Sounds good, but how about something in there about posting items for sale in the general discussion forum?

Done. Good idea.

I wish that people would put the state in the title too.

I understand that a number of users prefer machines that they can pick up. I'd add it as a suggestion and only as a rule if that is what the community wanted. (see below)

I disagree with the idea that the seller must open up a path to offer examples of pricing. Why? How is the same game selling on ebay or CL for 1/2 the price not a valid comparison?

I don't think I may understand your point, or maybe you didn't read what I wrote accurately or maybe I didn't write it clearly. It says that if the seller tries to make a price comparison himself, then other people can too (including mentioning eBay or CL).

I also disagree the notion that seller being a hobbyist or dealer should have any effect on the price of a game. Why would a game from a dealer be worth more?

Because a dealer has overhead. It's the same reason you have different wholesale and retail prices on used cars.

Whether or not it makes a difference to you is a different matter. In Los Angeles, for example, many TV shows' "green rooms" have arcade games in them. Those corporate buyers almost always buy or rent from dealers, and for them it really isn't more expensive. The extra price possibly paid is offset by the removal of risk and hassle in buying from an individual. With a dealer, you have a single vendor relationship (which an accounting department likes), and someone who will show up when you need a quick repair. Many celebrities and upper income people feel the same way. They don't want to buy machines from a variety of people, and then when something breaks they want the solution to be a single phone call away.

Obviously the people on these forums tend not to be the ones keeping Gene Lewin or BMI gaming in business.

Personally, I think your official list should be much less "wordy".

Probably, but easier said than done

I disagree with this section also (forum wrangling).

This was an attempt to preempt another possible problem. Solving a problem that hasn't happened yet might be unnecessary. Plus, for every rule created an extra burden is placed on the moderators to attempt to enforce them in an ongoing and consistent manner. Rockin' Rick (below) had an idea for simpler language: to allow only one new FS thread a day per user.

I'll strike the section wrangling section, and may or may not post the allow once per day language. (addressed below)


Thanks, fixed.

…more…banter…in…FS threads

I don't know where to go with this comment…

I think this is long overdue. I endorse those guidelines whole heartedly. Sign me up. ken

Thank you.

1) I would like to see a standardized Prefix added to all titles: FA - For Auction, FS - For Sale, FT - For Trade….

2) Right after the prefix (see above) should be where the items are located, especially if they are large items (game cabinets, monitors, filing cabinets full of manuals, etc.) where shipping becomes an issue. Even just a state abbreviation would help.

3) Thread hijacking. If someone is selling something similar … please consider creating a separate thread.

1 & 2: That is one I'd like to get more feedback on. Either I'll create another poll or a thread.

3. I'll see what I can do. I like the concept. The guideline page is exactly 10,000 characters, which is the limit for any post (unless I use my super-powers). I've been sticking to the limit, so if I add something about 'Similar Items' I'll have to take away words elsewhere (which isn't bad).

Perhaps a better rule would be to only allow one new FS thread a day. Rick

I think this is the answer…or to strike the language entirely. I'll revisit this.

Just add the ability for the OP to edit the title so they can say updated whenever or new items added. A seller should really have the ability to edit a thread.

Also, once an item is sold why not lock the thread? Don't delete, it is cool to look at old ads sometimes but no need to have them come back or have them used for personal discussions.

A user being able to edit the title of a thread does not seem to be a vbulletin option (on a per section basis that is). I really wish it was. It might be possible with a 3rd party hack, but every hack installed causes potential upgrade issues later.

Another option not apparently not available in vbulletin is the ability to moderator your own threads. It seems like the perfect ability in a FS section.

As far as locking a thread when an item is sold… there may be a way here without causing other problems. It's a research item on my side.

… make a print friendly (maybe a PDF)…

I'll look into this.

I think he meant the whole policy... and that a poll would be more representative of how people who post here really feel...

A poll would be no more perfect. It doesn't include the people who have been chased off the board and have stated they are willing to come back if things are cleaned up a little.

It also doesn't deal with multiple variables—that is some people might like some parts of the policy and not other parts and a poll doesn't work great for that. Most of the sentences are common sense anyway.

A better use for a forum poll is on a single or just a few simple concepts (ie: should people put FS /FT and location in their post titles?)
 
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Originally Posted by mrbill2084
I disagree with the idea that the seller must open up a path to offer examples of pricing. Why? How is the same game selling on ebay or CL for 1/2 the price not a valid comparison?
I don't think I may understand your point, or maybe you didn't read what I wrote accurately or maybe I didn't write it clearly. It says that if the seller tries to make a price comparison himself, then other people can too (including mentioning eBay or CL).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbill2084
I also disagree the notion that seller being a hobbyist or dealer should have any effect on the price of a game. Why would a game from a dealer be worth more?

Because a dealer has overhead. It's the same reason you have different wholesale and retail prices on used cars.

Whether or not it makes a difference to you is a different matter. In Los Angeles, for example, many TV shows' "green rooms" have arcade games in them. Those corporate buyers almost always buy or rent from dealers, and for them it really isn't more expensive. The extra price possibly paid is offset by the removal of risk and hassle in buying from an individual. With a dealer, you have a single vendor relationship (which an accounting department likes), and someone who will show up when you need a quick repair. Many celebrities and upper income people feel the same way. They don't want to buy machines from a variety of people, and then when something breaks they want the solution to be a single phone call away.

Obviously the people on these forums tend not to be the ones keeping Gene Lewin or BMI gaming in business.

what difference does it make if the dealer has overhead? Overhead might have something to do with him turning a profit or what he wants to ask for his game. It has nothing to with what a game is worth. When he is selling his game, it should be to be compared to all available options. Its the buyers choice to decide if he wants to pay extra to retail shop. As I said, just because someone puts a $1000 into restoring an xevious, it does not suddenly make it worth $1250..

I am not saying the retail shop should not be allowed to list the game. I am saying its fair to compare it. Yes, people have reasons why they shop at full retail. I have no problem with that. But to say that a game they sell is somehow worth more because they have a large warehouse is insane.

my point is is that most first time buyers have no idea what games normally sell for. If no one says hey thats overpriced, the nubies searches will be filled with high priced games. Your idea of putting a faq is nice, but it really does not help the 1st time buyer. Most people won't find it. Most people won't find this site let alone the sticky.

If you searching for a ms pacman for sale with google, its going to straight to the dozens of sales ads.
1: quarter arcade $1895
2: someone selling a kockoff for $1295
3: mspac with 10 games $1500
4: knockoff $1350
5: kockoff $1950

You tell me how people are going to find out that the only real ms pac is the 1st one listed and that it would normally sell in the $400-$750 range for an upright?

What harm does it do to quarter arcade to say wow, that price is up there? 99% of all searches will never find my comment. Lets see how much work it will be for a 1st time buyer to find info on the one that sold at auction in compton last week for $200, or the one on LA craigs list right now for $425.

And when you consider how easy it should be to find info on a ms pac with all the ms pacs being sold out there, how much info is out there for someone looking for something uncommon or rare.

Also you analogy to new and used cars does not hold water. The comparison is not new vs used. Its used vs used or at best restored vs used. here is something for you to think about. When your shopping for a new car, do you drive down to rodeo drive and buy it off the lot, or do you check out online websites and search for a lower price and maybe buy it at a cheaper dealer. Your ideas of limiting telling people of other options is like saying you can shop for a new car but you can't use cars.com to help you find a good price.
 
I'm punting on the for sale / wanted guidelines for a few more days. There are some specific parts of it I still want to think about, and I got distracted with other updates (ie: 3 letter searches, alternate styles/skins for viewing, restoration forum, and now as users have discovered before I intended: VAPS).
 
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I love this part:

"If an unanticipated long delay happens, the party not at fault should be able to cancel the transaction, and if the delay is due to a seller's fault the buyer shall be entitled a refund if requested."
 
Some of my sentences might be a little verbose and nothing more than common sense, but somehow it don't seem to be obvious to everyone...
 
Since I follow the for sale/trade section frequently I have tried to read/skim this entire post. And while its not the most appropiate word, I'll throw it out just the same.


Laissez-faire: The term is often used to refer to various economic philosophies and political philosophies which seek to minimize or eliminate government intervention in most or all aspects of society.(Wikipedia)


My point is that it usually seems that this group is fairly self policing. If someone posts a general discussion in a for sale section, they usually get called out by another member and the post is shut down. Likewise is someone is crossing the line with an inflamatory comment, they too usually get called out (at great length). And usually a flame war ensues.


Phet has a valid point that a little price policing and banter often serve to get a post read often(although I don't know if it helps to sell them quicker).


And the basis of Laissez-fair is simple. Less rules are better. It just seems that with all these new rules, if people stop calling each other out on these infractions and start reporting it to the moderator, the moderator will spend all of his time straightening out petty BS. It just seems most of this is already in practice to some degree. Buy hey, if you want to put it in stone, you are the moderator.
 
I feel that the only fair way to "price police" is if you see something that is priced too high (in your opinion), create your own ad with the same product at a more fair price. This will give the buyer an option. If you don't have a better option to offer the buyer, mind your own business. Or...we can create a price list for all the games, and if you want to sell your game, you have to offer it for the price that is agreed upon by the price police.


(Or we can go with McLemore's idea, which is GREAT)
 
PLEASE POST 'FOR SALE' AND 'WANTED' MESSAGES IN THE APPROPRIATE TRADING POST SECTION, AND NOT IN THE GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUMS.

ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES FOR THE FOR SALE/WANTED SECTIONS:



SCAMMERS AND THIEVES: True scammer can be called out. Simply because someone is unable or unwilling to ship something temporarily does not make them a scammer if they have previously been known to be reputable. Warnings still need to be matter-of-fact and non-abusive, and the thread and scammer should be reported immediately. Don't make repetitive postings. Just because you personally had a marginal transaction with an individual doesn't mean that person is automatically a scammer.

Please outline the KLOV moderator definition of "True scammer".

Please outline the KLOV moderator accepted amount of time when a "withheld item" goes from "temporary" to actual theft.

I think this is an important guideline for us all to be aware of. Are we talking months? Years? This paragraph is ambiguous at best and really makes no clear definition or rule.
 
Originally Posted by mrbill2084
I disagree with the idea that the seller must open up a path to offer examples of pricing. Why? How is the same game selling on ebay or CL for 1/2 the price not a valid comparison?
I don't think I may understand your point, or maybe you didn't read what I wrote accurately or maybe I didn't write it clearly. It says that if the seller tries to make a price comparison himself, then other people can too (including mentioning eBay or CL).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbill2084
I also disagree the notion that seller being a hobbyist or dealer should have any effect on the price of a game. Why would a game from a dealer be worth more?

Because a dealer has overhead. It's the same reason you have different wholesale and retail prices on used cars.

Whether or not it makes a difference to you is a different matter. In Los Angeles, for example, many TV shows' "green rooms" have arcade games in them. Those corporate buyers almost always buy or rent from dealers, and for them it really isn't more expensive. The extra price possibly paid is offset by the removal of risk and hassle in buying from an individual. With a dealer, you have a single vendor relationship (which an accounting department likes), and someone who will show up when you need a quick repair. Many celebrities and upper income people feel the same way. They don't want to buy machines from a variety of people, and then when something breaks they want the solution to be a single phone call away.

Obviously the people on these forums tend not to be the ones keeping Gene Lewin or BMI gaming in business.

what difference does it make if the dealer has overhead? Overhead might have something to do with him turning a profit or what he wants to ask for his game. It has nothing to with what a game is worth. When he is selling his game, it should be to be compared to all available options. Its the buyers choice to decide if he wants to pay extra to retail shop. As I said, just because someone puts a $1000 into restoring an xevious, it does not suddenly make it worth $1250..

I am not saying the retail shop should not be allowed to list the game. I am saying its fair to compare it. Yes, people have reasons why they shop at full retail. I have no problem with that. But to say that a game they sell is somehow worth more because they have a large warehouse is insane.

my point is is that most first time buyers have no idea what games normally sell for. If no one says hey thats overpriced, the nubies searches will be filled with high priced games. Your idea of putting a faq is nice, but it really does not help the 1st time buyer. Most people won't find it. Most people won't find this site let alone the sticky.

If you searching for a ms pacman for sale with google, its going to straight to the dozens of sales ads.
1: quarter arcade $1895
2: someone selling a kockoff for $1295
3: mspac with 10 games $1500
4: knockoff $1350
5: kockoff $1950

You tell me how people are going to find out that the only real ms pac is the 1st one listed and that it would normally sell in the $400-$750 range for an upright?

What harm does it do to quarter arcade to say wow, that price is up there? 99% of all searches will never find my comment. Lets see how much work it will be for a 1st time buyer to find info on the one that sold at auction in compton last week for $200, or the one on LA craigs list right now for $425.

And when you consider how easy it should be to find info on a ms pac with all the ms pacs being sold out there, how much info is out there for someone looking for something uncommon or rare.

Also you analogy to new and used cars does not hold water. The comparison is not new vs used. Its used vs used or at best restored vs used. here is something for you to think about. When your shopping for a new car, do you drive down to rodeo drive and buy it off the lot, or do you check out online websites and search for a lower price and maybe buy it at a cheaper dealer. Your ideas of limiting telling people of other options is like saying you can shop for a new car but you can't use cars.com to help you find a good price.

Time for a change
 
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