Fluke or Oscilloscope

Zinfer

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Which tool is more valuable in the repair of arcade games? I've had an oscilloscope for a number of years but frankly haven't found it to be particularly useful in diagnosing pc board problems at all.
Would the Fluke 9010a be of more value than an oscilloscope in the same price range?
 
Fluke will end up costing a LOT more as you need the correct pod for every CPU that you want to test. Figure the pods average $150 each and for the average collector you need a Z80, 6502, 6809 and maybe an 8080 plus the price of the unit and you are at twice what arguably the best scope for old games ( Tektronix 465B) would cost, even a calibrated one.
 
i would go in this order:

1) Multimeter
2) Good soldering Station
3) Logic Probe
4) Scope
5) Logic Comparator + Some Common IC Reference Chips

and the when you win the lottery

6) Crazy Expensive stuff (fluke 9010a, Logic analyzer, etc)
 
Well the reason I ask, I've been looking at picking up a fluke over the last several years. Seeing prices around $400 for the bare unit with option 1.
Last night I was working a bit (still learning) with the old Leader LBO-522, half it's knobs are busted off. I turned the focus knob, heard a click and it was then able to pull out of the unit. So there goes another one. I actually was just trying to measure a 9v battery and it couldn't even do that accurately. Hooked up for calibration, and couldn't get a good steady square waveform. I'm about ready to throw this thing out. So, now I'm looking at a Tenma 20Mhz scope for around $350 - essentially same price and new in box.
Just when I am about to move on, the old hardware breaks down.
 
I use my 9010a way more often than my oscilloscope. I probably have close to $900 invested in Fluke stuff though (unit, probe, pods). Not really a fair comparison since as Arc pointed out, an oscilloscope "in the same price range" as that would be overkill for arcade repair.

I agree with KI4SWY's list, except for me, 4) would be Logic Comparator and 5) would be Logic Analyzer.
 
Is the Tenma a good brand? I was looking at the Tecktronix 465B's on ebay but they all look beat to death.
 
Dude... Ohio?

You should check out the Dayton swap meet and pick up a good scope for cheap.
 
Wasn't aware of any swap meets in Dayton. Your from Texas. How do you know this and I don't? :)
Are you talking about some kind of Hamfest (Ham radio enthusiasts)? I'd heard of a Hamfest but being I was never into Ham radio..
 
For $350 you could get a much nicer scope - check http://www.tequipment.net/, I've been eyeing their digital scopes they had some specials on recently Im just broke for a bit from xmas and car insurance. In reality too...I've BARELY ever used a scope, although it does come in handy.

And yeah if you're near the Dayton meet you could prob score something nice there.

Logic analyzers - I used mine a few times but found it takes a while to set up, although it did help me find and fix a problem I would not have otherwise found. I got mine for relatively cheap on Ebay, just MAKE SURE whatever you get includes Pods (breakout cables) and CLIPS (usually these are worth or go for more than the unit itself).

To answer the original question, I really like having the Fluke, I think its indispensable to troubleshoot things that most people seem to ignore, and baseline a board, but they are something that should be considered an investment. I also had one issue where I found leaning on the Fluke bypassed or over-shot the actual problem at hand, so once a problem is baselined, the Fluke should soemtimes be taken back out of the mix.

Roadrunner had a great deal on one but he sold most if not all of it. You can try flippers.com for the pods or ebay.

Also I would definitely lean towards one with the serial option...while you may not use it every time, its pretty good for scripting tests.
 
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dayton ham fest, big ham fest every year, you can get a descent scope for cheap..

I may actually go this year.
 
I agree with KI4SWY's list, except for me, 4) would be Logic Comparator and 5) would be Logic Analyzer.

Yeah, i would give ya that..

although my logic comparator had two bed LED's good thing i have the test card to check it...

i way over $1200 in my Fluke Setup.

9010a w/Rs232 option (need to test the rs232 port)
Pods:
6502
6800
6802
6809
z80
68000
8088
8086
8080
 
For $350 you could get a much nicer scope - check http://www.tequipment.net/, I've been eyeing their digital scopes they had some specials on recently Im just broke for a bit from xmas and car insurance. In reality too...I've BARELY ever used a scope, although it does come in handy.

And yeah if you're near the Dayton meet you could prob score something nice there.

Logic analyzers - I used mine a few times but found it takes a while to set up, although it did help me find and fix a problem I would not have otherwise found. I got mine for relatively cheap on Ebay, just MAKE SURE whatever you get includes Pods (breakout cables) and CLIPS (usually these are worth or go for more than the unit itself).

To answer the original question, I really like having the Fluke, I think its indispensable to troubleshoot things that most people seem to ignore, and baseline a board, but they are something that should be considered an investment. I also had one issue where I found leaning on the Fluke bypassed or over-shot the actual problem at hand, so once a problem is baselined, the Fluke should soemtimes be taken back out of the mix.

Roadrunner had a great deal on one but he sold most if not all of it. You can try flippers.com for the pods or ebay.

Also I would definitely lean towards one with the serial option...while you may not use it every time, its pretty good for scripting tests.

I did recently pick up a Signature Analyzer, HP 5006a. But I don't know how to use it yet. I was considering buying Biltronix's CPU exerciser later. Not sure if there are any other Logic Analyzers that I'd need. There is another one I've seen used; an HP, but I don't know the model it was to find some chip problems on my old Asteroids PCB.
I was just so ready to break into a Fluke and then - THIS oscilloscope breakdown. If you can't rely on your test equipment to give you good info, then it's better being thrown out or gotten rid of. In this case, there are so many knobs busted off that I don't honestly think I could sell it. And if I can't get a decent reading off a simple 9v battery, it's worthless having it around.
 
I would agree with the others about the basic tools everyone should own first - multimeter, logic probe, solder/desolder station, etc. If you know what you're doing and can justify the money though, the 9010a is an invaluable tool for directly debugging many types of failures (as opposed to indirect/brute force debugging - e.g. reflowing and reseating).

At this point, I've sank about $500 into two 9010a's and Z80/8088/6502 pods; a 6809 pod cost a small fortune, but I splurged on it since I wanted to work on Williams games primarily.

LeChuck
 
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I know I'm pretty much there. www.zinfer.com/thebench.htm
Well hopefully this Tektronix 465b will be A-ok. I was looking at moving towards an OWON. But I need a base scope that works well at the 20Mhz level. I picked up the Leader LBO-522 to learn on,but because it acts funny and half the nobs are broke off I feel it really stunted my growth in learning. Therefore all I used it for essentially was a XY monitor.
 
I know I'm pretty much there. www.zinfer.com/thebench.htm
Well hopefully this Tektronix 465b will be A-ok. I was looking at moving towards an OWON. But I need a base scope that works well at the 20Mhz level. I picked up the Leader LBO-522 to learn on,but because it acts funny and half the nobs are broke off I feel it really stunted my growth in learning. Therefore all I used it for essentially was a XY monitor.
Looks pretty good to me. Soon you'll acquire enough gear to need a dedicated room (speaking from experience .. :D)

Out of curiosity, what are you debugging that requires a 20 MHz scope?

LeChuck
 
I did recently pick up a Signature Analyzer, HP 5006a. But I don't know how to use it yet. I was considering buying Biltronix's CPU exerciser later. Not sure if there are any other Logic Analyzers that I'd need. There is another one I've seen used; an HP, but I don't know the model it was to find some chip problems on my old Asteroids PCB.
I was just so ready to break into a Fluke and then - THIS oscilloscope breakdown. If you can't rely on your test equipment to give you good info, then it's better being thrown out or gotten rid of. In this case, there are so many knobs busted off that I don't honestly think I could sell it. And if I can't get a decent reading off a simple 9v battery, it's worthless having it around.

The HP thing you're talking about is a logic "comparator"...its a little thing you stick a logic IC into, do some setup, then clip it onto an existing logic IC on the board. It compares the outputs of the two and tells you if there's any difference, hence proving a chip to be bad in-circuit. Thats a very nice tool to have.

As far as an o-scope, if you're struggling with the one you have, just junk it and find something that'll meet your needs. I do find that old scopes are great for mini x-y monitors...leave it set up and off to the side! I have one with the facial falling off but its perfect for that use.
 
Thats a very nice tool to have.

Yes - well worth buying, tho you do need known good chips to compare against, so a way to test TTLs is essential especially if you are robbing them from scrap boards.

As for your scope - bin it, get a working one, if half the knobs are knocked off yours it is highly likely it is in the totally wrong mode for what you are trying to use it for.

A Fluke is a nice to have device but a scope is a much more universal tool. The fluke can only see what the original CPU on the board can see and on many boards there are faults that are not directly connected to the CPU anyway so you will never find them as the microprocessor part of the board is running fine. Also the Fluke will tell you where to look next, it wont tell you which chip you need to replace, so you need a scope to follow up on the leads the Fluke has given you.

I only really use my Fluke for boards where the CPU refuses to run, in most cases I can find the reason with the scope and chip datasheets alone.

Flukes with Z80 pods are not too pricey, but if you want a 68000 pod then they cost a bomb, think I dropped $300 on that pod alone.
 
A Fluke is a nice to have device but a scope is a much more universal tool. The fluke can only see what the original CPU on the board can see and on many boards there are faults that are not directly connected to the CPU anyway so you will never find them as the microprocessor part of the board is running fine. Also the Fluke will tell you where to look next, it wont tell you which chip you need to replace, so you need a scope to follow up on the leads the Fluke has given you.

I only really use my Fluke for boards where the CPU refuses to run, in most cases I can find the reason with the scope and chip datasheets alone.

Gooood point. A Fluke won't help you with anything in the video circuitry, nor the sound (past any sound CPU & memory).

I also vote for first owning and learning to use and diagnose with a scope.

I can see how a Fluke could help automate some CPU-side testing for someone who repairs PCBs professionally (or quite often). But the most valuable tool is between your ears, and it'll take a whole lot of fancy and expensive test equipment to find problems without using that tool. IMHO, a large majority of problems can be tracked down with schematics, a DMM, a logic probe, and occationally a scope.
 
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