Fireball 2 Questions

[FrizzleFried]

CPU lamp problem rectified... bad ground connection as Spanks suggested...

...S&T rebuild kit should be here Thursday. I also have a rubber kit coming (though the ones on the cab are pretty decent)...

Another little oddity I noticed RE: the soundboard issues... even in mode 00 (chimes)... I can BARELY hear the background sounds... the same level as I hear them in mode 03 (effects + background) even though there is supposed to be no background sounds in mode 00...

Worst case and this S&T is jacked... whats a S&T go for and does anyone have one for sale?

 

[spanks_4]

Is there another name for the S&T board? I looked everywhere and found everything for that game *board wise*, except that one. Is it part of the mpu?

 

[FrizzleFried]

S&T = Squawk & Talk...



The Sound board.

 

[spanks_4]

I knew what S&T stood for just didn't know if it was different from sound. Let me look again!

I have looked every where for a sound board for fireball and nothing dude. Must have been grouped in with the new MPU's or something.

 

[Lindsey]

...S&T rebuild kit should be here Thursday. I also have a rubber kit coming (though the ones on the cab are pretty decent)...

That's a good first step. Take a look at the connectors and sockets while you're at it. The sockets on these boards are not getting any younger. Re-seating the socketed chips is not a bad idea. I would replace the electrolytic caps and the pots. In the mean time you might be able to clean the pots by spraying them with contact cleaner and turning them all the way from one extreme to the other. If the sounds are still quiet after that I would look at the pre-amp.

Another little oddity I noticed RE: the soundboard issues... even in mode 00 (chimes)... I can BARELY hear the background sounds... the same level as I hear them in mode 03 (effects + background) even though there is supposed to be no background sounds in mode 00...

The Squawk And Talk is a pretty complicated board, relatively speaking, and could develop all kinds of weird problems due to a multitude of reasons.

Worst case and this S&T is jacked... whats a S&T go for and does anyone have one for sale?

I've seen S&T boards sell in the $50-$150 range. If you can't get yours fixed I can probably come up with one to sell.

 

[djw90]

If you ever decide to put in new targets. I have a set my wife gave me for my birthday that I never used that I might sell ya

 

[FrizzleFried]

Well now sumbitch...

I got my S&T rebuild kit today and re-capped the board... I also replaced the pots...

The good news is that the sounds that were there before are still there... and they sound better than ever!!

The bad news is that the sounds that were absent before are still absent and there is no difference... I can hear them VERY VERY VERY faintly (lets put it to you this way... they are so faint that if my house heater is on which is in the same room... I can't hear them) but that is it.

Hypothesis: From what I have read I do believe there are 3 channels to this board... voice (working), and two different sound channels that produce sounds two different ways. Lets say perhaps all the chimes and the two working sound effects (pop bumper and slingshot) are output through one of those channels... and the other channel outputs the background sounds, drop target and roll-over effects, etc...

If all that is true, then it sounds to ME like there is a problem with the amplifier on that one channel...

Is that something that can be replaced?

 

[FrizzleFried]

Question...

Could one of the socketed chips on the board be the culprit? The reason I ask is because I have a working Xenon here and aside from the ROMS, I don't see why I couldn't swap chips to at least rule them out...

...but of course if there is no way they could be the issue... I'd rather not mess with Xenon...

 

[FrizzleFried]

Welp... I realized after reading the pin repair guide that Xenon uses a different sound board than FB2...

Bummer.

I've been getting the playfield in order while I hope and pray someone here comes up with a new avenue of attack...

EDIT: Playfield touched up... (model paint FTW!)

 

[Lindsey]

Like I mentioned, I would look at the pre-amp next. The pre-amp is U14 (LM3900 quad op-amp). The sound op-amp could have gone bad causing this problem though the gain is set by R41 so that resistor going out of spec could cause a low output as well.

 

[FrizzleFried]

By "look at" do you mean replace or test? If test... how? I DO have a logic probe...though I've never used it.

As for R41... I'll just replace that to be sure. Do you know the value? I am still not familiar with how to determine value on a resistor...

 

[Lindsey]

By "look at" do you mean replace or test? If test... how? I DO have a logic probe...though I've never used it.

The easiest thing for you to do will be to desolder U13 and U14, install sockets and swap them. You could test them in circuit on a bench but just swapping the op-amps is a more direct approach for you (IMO). If your problem changes you know U14 is bad.

As for R41... I'll just replace that to be sure.

If it looks good (no sign of heat damage) and reads in spec with a meter there's no reason to replace it. Just desolder one side and measure it with an ohmmeter.

Do you know the value? I am still not familiar with how to determine value on a resistor...

You can find the resistor color chart with google in about 4 seconds to determine the value of the resistor installed in the board but you'll also want to look at the schematic to determine the value that should be there. In this case I've already done that and it's 200K (R41).

If you get fed up with it I would do an exchange plus cash for a working one. Shipping will suck though.

EDIT: There is also a software adjustment for sound and speech level (IIRC) so I would try it with the batteries removed from the MPU to reset the adjustments to default just to be sure. Maybe not but it's worth a try

 

[FrizzleFried]

The easiest thing for you to do will be to desolder U13 and U14, install sockets and swap them. You could test them in circuit on a bench but just swapping the op-amps is a more direct approach for you (IMO). If your problem changes you know U14 is bad.

Welp, I pulled the chips, soldered in some sockets and, unfortunately, regardless of which socket the chips are in, the problem remains... it doesn't change.

If it looks good (no sign of heat damage) and reads in spec with a meter there's no reason to replace it. Just desolder one side and measure it with an ohmmeter.

You can find the resistor color chart with google in about 4 seconds to determine the value of the resistor installed in the board but you'll also want to look at the schematic to determine the value that should be there. In this case I've already done that and it's 200K (R41).

The resistor looks fine... still, I desoldered one end and tested... it meters out to 196.5K. I am guessing that is within spec?

If you get fed up with it I would do an exchange plus cash for a working one. Shipping will suck though.

PM me what kind of dough we're talking... shipped to 83686... that said, I'd much prefer to track down the issue with this board if at all possible.

Any other suggestions on where to look? The fact that I can hear the sounds very very faintly tells me it's not a problem with sound generation, but rather amplification. Is there an external amp somewhere? If so would it be multichannel? My guess is NO to both.

EDIT: There is also a software adjustment or sound and speech level (IIRC) so I would try it with the batteries removed from the MPU to reset the adjustments to default just to be sure. Maybe not but it's worth a try

I do not believe there is a software adjustment for sound or speech level... according to the manual there are the two pots on the S&T board and the pot on the coin door. There IS a software setting which determines what plays...

Soft DIP #18

Setting 00 is CHIMES ONLY
01 is CHIMES + BACKGROUND SOUND
02 is EFFECTS ONLY
03 is EFFECTS + BACKGROUND SOUND

 

[ELutz]

I noticed on the picture you posted in the beginning of this thread....you have an empty socket where a DAC usually goes. I don't know if all machines use and/or need this DAC. Do you have a manual? It might be worth checking...

Edward

 

[FrizzleFried]

I noticed on the picture you posted in the beginning of this thread....you have an empty socket where a DAC usually goes. I don't know if all machines use and/or need this DAC. Do you have a manual? It might be worth checking...

Edward

Wouldn't the DAC be used in the GENERATION of the sounds rather than the amplification?

 

[ELutz]

Wouldn't the DAC be used in the GENERATION of the sounds rather than the amplification?

The DAC is used as a kinda "interface" for some of the sounds. Your paticular sound board only has one amp (but several pre-amps). You've got digital sound.....analog sound.....speech. They all start at different places, but end up at the same amp. As they all travel along their paticular paths.....the DAC interfaces the digital sound circuit with the other two circuits before traveling on to the amp.

Now, I'm not familiar with Fireball II. I know Eight Ball Deluxe uses the same sound board....it uses the DAC. I also had a customers Fireball Classic that also uses the same sound board....it did not use the DAC. I'm just throwing food for thought out there (someone with a Fireball II could check their sound board for you).

I can say this....your issue is in the pre-amp section of one of the (two) audio circuits. The amplifier circuit is fine.

Edward

 

[FrizzleFried]

I think I just found out why my sound board isn't working right....

You tell me...

Here is mine:

...and here is a shot of a friends Fireball II's sound board.

Notice a difference? U6 is missing a chip on my board. I'm guessing that is the issue?!?

Anyone have one of these chips or a source for one?


EDIT: I just noticed I am also missing the chip at U10?! Are BOTH necessary for this game or does my friends Fireball II have some extra unnecessary components?

 

[Lindsey]

Notice a difference? U6 is missing a chip on my board. I'm guessing that is the issue?!?

U6 is a 6810 RAM and will only be used if the CPU is a 6800. I'm guessing yours uses a 6802 CPU which doesn't require the 6810 RAM. It wouldn't boot at all without it if a 6800 were installed. So unfortunately that won't solve your problem.

EDIT: I just noticed I am also missing the chip at U10?! Are BOTH necessary for this game or does my friends Fireball II have some extra unnecessary components?

That's the D/A converter that was mentioned earlier in the thread. I couldn't say if Fireball II uses the D/A converter but it's worth a try installing one. If it did need one though I would think it would cause a complete lack of some sounds rather than a low volume but like I said it's worth a try. I think you also mentioned that the sounds were working at some point then went quiet. If that's the case then I really doubt you need a D/A converter.

 

[Lindsey]

You could also remove jumper DD to eliminate the sound volume control as the source of the problem. That should make the sound section go to full volume (when working).

Take a look at the S&T schematic to see what I'm talking about.

 

[FrizzleFried]

U6 is a 6810 RAM and will only be used if the CPU is a 6800. I'm guessing yours uses a 6802 CPU which doesn't require the 6810 RAM. It wouldn't boot at all without it if a 6800 were installed. So unfortunately that won't solve your problem.



That's the D/A converter that was mentioned earlier in the thread. I couldn't say if Fireball II uses the D/A converter but it's worth a try installing one. If it did need one though I would think it would cause a complete lack of some sounds rather than a low volume but like I said it's worth a try. I think you also mentioned that the sounds were working at some point then went quiet. If that's the case then I really doubt you need a D/A converter.

Bummer...and I thought I found the issues...

Nope...the sounds have never worked. They are THERE but extremely low volume.... and after the cap-kit they are actually even LOWER volume actually..