EXPERIMENT: Last Call Thread Mandatory For Planned Part-Outs June 15 to July 31.

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mclemore

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EXPERIMENT: Last Call Thread Mandatory For Planned Part-Outs June 15 to July 31.

Date: June 8, 2011

Subject: Last Call Thread Mandatory Instead of Voluntary June 15, 2011 to July 31, 2011.

Summary. The Last Call Threads have been used on a voluntary basis for a few months now. It's been a good experiment. Several games have been saved as result. At the same time, other games have not been saved. A few have utilized the Last Call Threads but haven't found a savior. In other cases, the threads have been ignored and a poster has simply announced that they are in the middle of scrapping a game and are selling pieces one at a time. Thus, as a test, from June 15 to July 31, 2011 if you are planning on parting out a game (cabinet complete or not) and selling the parts here you must first offer the game for sale (even if damaged), and if you are keeping some of the parts, offer to sell the remaining parts as a set. Such offers should be posted for 2 weeks prior to any part-out. If you have a cabinet that you are thinking of simply dumping, please offer it here for 2 weeks before you do. If someone wants to save a game, please give them 2 weeks from that point to pick it up. Additionally, please consider listing games for sale in VAPS—it's free to do so.

Goal:


(1) To reduce the needless parting out of games (whether working or not, whether complete or incomplete) and to encourage the preservation of endangered games,

(2) while minimizing any burdens or obligations on an owner wishing to get rid of, or part-out a game, and

(3) not imposing enough of a burden as to push "parting-out" underground, and

(4) to massively reduce any harassment of people looking at disposing of a game in any way if done with notice, and opportunity to save, to the community

Last Test: Several months of a voluntary "Last Call" thread.

New Test: 45 days of the "Last Call" threads being mandatory, from June 15, 2011 to July 31, 2011. If you are going to part out a game doing this time period and want to sell any of the parts on line here, you will follow the 'Last Call' thread guidelines, including (1) Offering a machine or partial machine such a cabinet and some parts to there use for 2 weeks being conducting a part-out, (2) if you are considering the part-out because you want the use of a part in the machine let people know and maybe they will sell you the part you need, and (3) if you part it out anyway, try offering it up as a partial machine, ie: a whole machine minus a monitor or pcb before you scrap it altogether, (4) if any seller thinks these rules crimp their style too much, please feel free to contact me privately.

Exception to the 2 week rule occurs when a machine is located someplace that it can't stay at period. In such case, a original poster should explain why they can't give too weeks notice. Yes, this is a judgment call, but then again, this is an experimental process.

If you are thinking of parting out a machine, post about it, and also post a link or reference to your thread in the monthly 'Last Call' sticky.

Violation: Violations could result in the deletion or closure of your thread, and/or a temp ban (which would be of short duration for a first offense and climb from there). I'm sure the enforcement of this experiment will be flawed by the very nature of the task, but you can all do your part to help make this as smooth as possible.

Refinement: I'm posting this a week in advance before putting these rules into place to give us time to refine them. Additionally, we reserve the right to adjust these rules any time during the six-week experiment period.
 
Ok... So I've likely created a thread that may get more responses than I have time to read.

Again the point isn't to try and ban 'part-outs', but to give machines a chance to survive. And it's mostly a six week test beginning in a week. Thanks for your patience and cooperation.

--

Some Quick Thoughts about Parting Out.

- In a single post that the poster deleted themselves in a thread on the topic, they made two good points: "I think people can do whatever they want with their cabs, it's their shit, right?" and "It would be nice to see a few less parted working games because a guy wants to make $300 vs. $250.'

- To people that say "It's my property", I say "Yes, but the needless destruction of a game is…well… needless and thus should be prevented when possible. And although it's a matter of debate as to whether it applies to few or all games, at some point if a game is rare and special enough one's responsibility should exceed 'It is my business.'"

- To people that say "We should ban anyone from parting out a game and selling the parts" I say, "Part outs will happen, period. If we ban it then parting out will simply go 'underground—part outs will cease to happen and a lot of random parts without history will appear.

- Part outs can be reduced, often without any impact on the owner.

- A game owner can do with their property what they want.

- Games 'should' be preserved when possible. Rare games 'really should', if not 'must' be preserved.

- Even if you aren't thinking of parting out a game, but converting a rare game into a Mame or other cabinet, consider offering it up and using something less precious.

- If you care about preservation, care about VAPS (and participate).

- Even if you don't think a game is rare, someone else might [Sometimes it amazes me what people think is worth parting out. A fairly nice Boxing Bugs? At this point in time, really?]

- It's always going to be tough. The most die-hard preservationists agree that some games can be 'too far gone'. Who decides whether a game is worth saving or not?

- Parting a game because a part in it doesn't work (ie: pcb or monitor) is usually unnecessary.

- Parting a game because you want a part in it can often be avoided because there is often another way to fix or get the part in question. Ask for help on these forums. Buy a part here or on eBay if needed. List a 'part wanted' in VAPS---it's a new feature. Better yet, FIX the part you already have? Don't know how? That's ok, but I bet someone on these forums knows.

- If you are going to part out a game, you should give other people a chance to save it.

- If you are thinking about parting out a game, say so (and don't get attacked for it). Again, neither the games nor collectors win if parting out is pushed underground.

- DON'T using 'parting out' as a marketing tool. Recently a user started posting for-sale threads in which he intentionally said he was going to smash the games simply so people would buy them for more money. I can't begin to tell you how classless I think threatening to smash nice cabs if they were not purchased right away can be, especially when the goal it to raise the price of your games instead of a goal of helping cabinets get saved. No "do this or the bunny gets it between the eyes and I'm going to enjoy it" posts. I don't think the word 'part-out' should be banned, though it shouldn't be abused either.

- Joking about 'parting-out' in a way likely to intentionally inflame others isn't cool either.

- It is possible to analyze this into oblivion. This post could be 100x longer than it is. "What about conversions—should they be saved?"

- If someone has given you a chance to save a game, be respectful. Unless otherwise arranged, pick up the cabinet (yourself or via NAVL) within 2 weeks. If its going to take longer than 2 weeks to pick up a game, the buyer should really be compensating the seller/donor the greater of $25/month or actual storage costs on a current month-to-month basis.

- If you are going to part out a game anyway, you should offer any parts you don't want as a set before you sell the individual pieces. [If you are parting out a Zaxxon because you want the monitor, consider offering up the rest of the Zaxxon, sans-monitor, before you scrap it.

- Cabinets with damage that you think are not worth saving, might not be to you, but often may be to someone else. If it costs you nothing or little, why not give them a chance. [ http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=187013 ]

- People are obviously passionate about this topic, as seen by countless threads. This passion often has translated to things being said that shouldn't have been said, from people with all ranges of perspectives on the issue.

- I'm writing this very quickly in one pass, so I'll likely refine and change anything on this page. This page likely has typos, and I might not mean everything I write.
 
I commend what you're trying to do. Although, I don't think it will save a single machine. It will only keep aware sellers from using phrases for certain parts such as "parted out", "from a machine", "water damaged cab was useless", "deconverted", "convereted", and on and on.

This could obviously be a good thing, as it will mean that we as a community on this site don't endorse that kind of behavior. Of course, it'll also mean people will get sneaky.
 
The 'sneaky' issue has always been a key concern. The only way I can think of addressing this is to make the burden on sellers very light..... 2 week notice, then you can do what you want anyway. If you think you can't do a 2 week notice (like the machine is in a building about to be closed), then you get a pass anyway. And a seller doesn't have to accept an offer during the 2 weeks anyway.

It's only a stop sign in a road. It may get people to slow down and pause, but it isn't going to stop speeding. Hopefully, the speeders don't mind the stop sign.
 
Forgive me for my ignorance but is there a sub forum for this?

I think it would make sense for it to be a sub forum under the for sale section.
 
Forgive me for my ignorance but is there a sub forum for this?

I think it would make sense for it to be a sub forum under the for sale section.

The actually guidelines/rules in a locked sticky will appear in the for sale section in a week when it goes live (and this thread will unsticky).

In the mean time it's half announcement and have general discussion, which is why I thought it was more appropriate here.
 
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I approve of this thread/intention :D

Why the hell not? This IS fundamentally a preservation site. There are rules you must follow everywhere, if you don't like them you can go elsewhere. In this case, there's always eBay, right? :p Or maybe put that obscure marquee bracket on Craigslist, probably get lots of action, hehe.

inb4 animated gifs, crybabies, locks, bans, and other general poopiness :cool:
 
Obviously whether this helps in practice is up for debate but I agree with ballytablewiz. I'm glad this site is officially endorsing preservation and discouraging part outs in some fashion.

I would guess that very few people would have preserved the pole position cockpit I have but to me it was worth saving so you never know who might want that cab that you think is junk.
 
Well, this isn't a free speech site or a free marketplace.

What it is, is a moderated forum and the owners/managers/moderators are free to do as they please. If anyone should be offended or feel like crying there is always room for spam on Craigslist.

It's an interesting attempt to try and preserve some games and I applaud it but I also feel that this may result in more outbursts on the forum.

RJ
 
- It is possible to analyze this into oblivion. This post could be 100x longer than it is. "What about conversions—should they be saved?"
Well, what about conversions? Would they be on a case by case basis?
I'm assuming this will be the case, but just want to clarify.
If I have a tetris in a Robotron cab, and I want to kit out the Tetris, as I am going to restore it back to Robotron, it's fine to try to sell the tetris kit here, correct?
Maybe the rule (at least in the beginning) should be limited to Dedicated machines only. (Sorry if I missed that in the rules)
 
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Point the First: The games belong to the person that owns them, and they can do what they please with them.

2: KLOV is mclemore's and he can put in whatever rules he likes.

C: Part outs are necessary for the hobby. It keeps hardware flowing to those who need it.

Finally: Throwing away salvageable cabs, monitors and other parts hurts the hobby, because it puts hardware out of the reach of those who need it.

Post Script: Having a place that sellers can put items that otherwise would be thrown away will result in less stuff being thrown away. Win.
 
I wish more people would use the "(insert month) freebee part out" thread, i've seen many games/posts stating freebee's that weren't even put in the sticky thread tho they should have been. It's a great thread to be stickied and i always check atleast once a week, tho some people fail to use it (prolly the same people that post things in the wrong forum in the first place).
 
I'm down with the sentiment behind this, but the simple fact is sometimes the games are worth more parted out than whole. I had a MC in terrible shape, waterlogged cab that was falling apart, damaged side art, nonworking pcb, burned tube with dead g07 chassis, rusted trackball, ARII putting out wrong voltages etc etc. What's that worth to most KLOVers? $50? $100? Maybe?

But I sold the PCB, the wiring harness, the trackball, and the rebuilt ARII for around $130 (minus shipping and paypal fees), plus still have the monitor, power brick, marquee, coin door etc etc. Right there is extra value in my pocket and other games get to live off of the parts (which I sold for reasonable rates to help other games live).

Now alternately, say I wanted a nice Missile Command. I could've put around $500 into the one I had and made it look nice (assuming the cabinet was salvagable) with new sideart, rebuilt trackball, repaired PCB, new repro control panel or overlay, repairing the monitor, etc etc. But a decent MC fetches what, $300? Maaaaaayybe $350?

I guess my point is -- someone like me, and other people who care much less than I do, are just going to say "waterlogged missile command cabinet, cab is disintegrating, everything inside is dead, $300" and get no takers. And then when the two week moratorium is over, they're going to part it out and sell the parts.

Again, I understand the intention behind the rules, and I'm all for people taking advantage of the last call lists; I just don't see the mandatory usage of them working out as intended.

EDIT: Adding for clarity: I'm not saying that I would want to restore these games to sell at a profit or even to break even, just if I wanted a nice MC it makes a lot more fiscal sense to just buy a nice one instead of trying to repair/restore one as far gone as the one in question.
 
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Well, what about conversions? Would they be on a case by case basis?
I'm assuming this will be the case, but just want to clarify.
If I have a tetris in a Robotron cab, and I want to kit out the Tetris, as I am going to restore it back to Robotron, it's fine to try to sell the tetris kit here, correct?
Maybe the rule (at least in the beginning) should be limited to Dedicated machines only. (Sorry if I missed that in the rules)

In your Tetris / Robotron example above, I think it really depends on the judgement of the OP (and the scarcity of the conversion). If you are taking a Tetris/Robotron cabinet back to being a Robotron, I think it's hard for anyone to fault you much. Now if you were selling the Tetris kit, then the monitor, then using the cabinet to roast marshmallows with, it should have been offered up. One concern here is that sometimes the conversions are more precious than the original machine in the opinion of many.

There are some extremely rare conversions that are wanted by collectors, and it might not be possible to 'undo' this rare conversion without loss (the side art isn't removable, and what about the control panel?). There are a number of collectors here that would gladly save a rare cabinet that had previously been converted, either to keep it as a conversion, or to convert it back. Each case is unique.

So, as far as conversions, I'm not convinced for this test its worth making them an exception. It's only a six week test at this time, and I'm only asking people to offer up a machine on death row for TWO (2) weeks.

A large exception already would exist for in essence, hardship, that an owner can't logistically wait 2 weeks to save a game or a situation prevents it. I think that's fair and really don't expect anyone (or few) to use it. If someone is classless enough to blatantly abuse this exception, well... we'll deal with that.

The idea is not telling someone they can't part out a game, but simply asking them to give others a chance to save it, and during the test requiring them to give it a 2 week chance if they are going to sell the remains here. Then they can do what they want, no harm, no foul.

Wonder how long it's going to take before someone makes a KLOV Partout Police picture

While such a photo might be (quiet) funny, it's use in practice likely wouldn't be helpful and I'm not inclined to think that this community should be very tolerant of harassment...

I wish more people would use the "(insert month) freebee part out" thread, i've seen many games/posts stating freebee's that weren't even put in the sticky thread tho they should have been. It's a great thread to be stickied and i always check atleast once a week, tho some people fail to use it (prolly the same people that post things in the wrong forum in the first place).

'Freebee' thread? You don't mean the 'Last Call' thread do you? Which thread are you referring to? Other than Todd's Free Cabinet thread I'm not seeing much recently.

I'm down with the sentiment behind this, but the simple fact is sometimes the games are worth more parted out than whole. I had a MC in terrible shape, waterlogged cab that was falling apart, damaged side art, nonworking pcb, burned tube with dead g07 chassis, rusted trackball, ARII putting out wrong voltages etc etc. What's that worth to most KLOVers? $50? $100? Maybe?

But I sold the PCB, the wiring harness, the trackball, and the rebuilt ARII for around $130 (minus shipping and paypal fees), plus still have the monitor, power brick, marquee, coin door etc etc. Right there is extra value in my pocket and other games get to live off of the parts (which I sold for reasonable rates to help other games live).

Worth more dead than alive? That's always been the rub. The seller has choices: (1) accept a lower price than a part-out price if he/she believes the game is going to saved -- it's a form of social good or charity, or (2) ask a higher price that reflects the value of the parts to the seller, hopefully minus the time it would take to part something out and ship to multiple people.

At the end of the day, it's the owners decision what they are willing to let a game go for. In the above example, maybe are you willing to sell the MC for $75. Maybe you would want $200 or $250 because you think the parts are worth that too you (in good faith). Maybe at the higher price (or even at the lower price) no one steps up, 2 weeks pass, and you part out the machine. If a machine gets parted out after 2 weeks and the poster acted in good faith, no should publicly gripe then. The community, and the individuals in it, at least had an opportunity. Not every game is going to be saved, and that's ok. If more games are given chances though, more will be saved.

While there a limited number of people that might want to save an economically unviable Missile Command (and a limit to how many of these machines this small group may want to or can save), the odds go up as the games get more obscure. The point is that its hard for many owners to guess what's in other people's mind (as to their willingness to save a game), and clearly from the posts on this forum and elsewhere many people guess wrong.

I have saved a decent number of games from being parted out (and paid above the value of the game in the opinion of the owner and even above the value of the parts). So have others here (ie: Van). Someone saving a game is almost always paying more than what the owner thinks it is worth (since the owner is accepting the deal, and often the buyer is getting North American Van Lines to ship it).

[Sometimes it is really wrong, like a vector Boxing Bugs that got parted out on eBay last year. Supposedly had cabinet (water) damage but likely wasn't bad since every part that came off the machine (I bought them all) was in great shape (including control panel, power supply, etc.). I would have bought the cabinet (the only piece missing other than a tube) if the seller had not junked it. The seller someone thought it was worth parting out, or wanted the tube (he kept the tube but I got the chassis).]

Now alternately, say I wanted a nice Missile Command. I could've put around $500 into the one I had and made it look nice (assuming the cabinet was salvagable) with new sideart, rebuilt trackball, repaired PCB, new repro control panel or overlay, repairing the monitor, etc etc. But a decent MC fetches what, $300? Maaaaaayybe $350?

I guess my point is -- someone like me, and other people who care much less than I do, are just going to say "waterlogged missile command cabinet, cab is disintegrating, everything inside is dead, $300" and get no takers. And then when the two week moratorium is over, they're going to part it out and sell the parts. [underlining added by mclemore]

Again, I understand the intention behind the rules, and I'm all for people taking advantage of the last call lists; I just don't see the manditory usage of them working out as intended.

EDIT: Adding for clarity: I'm not saying that I would want to restore these games to sell at a profit or even to break even, just if I wanted a nice MC it makes a lot more fiscal sense to just buy a nice one instead of trying to repair/restore one as far gone as the one in question.

Again, with your waterlogged MC example. There is a good chance no one will step up, unless they are local. 2 weeks shouldn't hurt you though. At least you gave fair notice and that's worth something as no one can judge you for at least making the effort.

Often it isn't as clear as a common MC "waterlogged missile command cabinet, cab is disintegrating, everything inside is dead".

How about this one: http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=187013

"I have a complete, working Zaxxon. I am parting it out. I'm usually against this but there was a lot of damage to the bottom, corners, and front of the cab and I can't do wood-working."

Zaxxon works fine, monitor looks great, control panel is pretty nice. There is some damage on the front where 2 chunks of particle board popped off nails as the cabinet got pushed/flexed, but many skilled collectors could fix that pretty easily. No photos of the sides, but if its like the front its easily fixable. Would this game have been saved by a mandatory 2 weeks on death row? Maybe, Maybe not. But it definitely would have been a candidate.

Without offering the game the owner is making an assumption that the game is worth a whole lot more dead than alive, or that simply no one would want it period. These assumptions are often wrong.

If a game gets parted out after 2 weeks, that's ok. It just means you, hindered (or whomever), was right that no one stepped up (this time).
 
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Point the First: The games belong to the person that owns them, and they can do what they please with them.

Yes I agree...


KLOV is mclemore's and he can put in whatever rules he likes.
Thanks for the comment as sometimes when an individual gets really rude around here they seem to miss the point that someone set this site up and a whole community supports it. My motivation is to serve the community, this hobby, and this history. And I have to act within real limits. If I wasn't sensitive to the needs of the community, the community would find another bar to hang out in.

Part outs are necessary for the hobby. It keeps hardware flowing to those who need it.

Yes, and no. Literally yes I agree, but there are tons of needless part-outs and some challenges in smoothly matching available parts with machines that need them.

The lack of easily finding available parts in many cases likely leads to more parts hoarding than necessary, which could lead to more part-outs. I myself hoard a lot of parts that I may or may not ever need, mostly because I don't think I'll find them if and when I do need them. Obviously the Internet has helped a lot (these forums, eBay, etc.). I'm trying to help the problem by supporting parts for-sale/wants in VAPS. I'm working on a tech system for the site that would help people learn, for example, about repairing PCBs, and a list of respected vendors for repair. Every little bit helps.


Throwing away salvageable cabs, monitors and other parts hurts the hobby, because it puts hardware out of the reach of those who need it.

Absolutely. That's one of the reasons I don't to beat up people for offering parts from parted out games. If a game can be reasonble saved, it should be. If not, better to be parted out than thrown out.

Having a place that sellers can put items that otherwise would be thrown away will result in less stuff being thrown away. Win.

In addition to the last call thread, which is largely about saving cabinets, maybe a monthly freebe sticky could be worth trying.
 
I like this idea if nothing else for what it is attempting to do! I'm all for saving as many games as possible. That being said usually the part-outs happen when the seller is more interested in making the money they get from a part out vs selling the cab as one (business man vs hobbyist/collector). I'm afraid that the tested rule will not stop this at all though. If I were one of those on the side of businessman (and I am not) and I had a game worth more in parts than whole, I would just list it whole for a selling price way more than it is worth as a whole (at least what I would sell the total parts for) Watch is sit for two weeks and then part it. So while I think this is noble and I hope that I'm wrong, I am afraid that this may not save anything.
 
mclemore said:
If a game gets parted out after 2 weeks, that's ok. It just means you, hindered (or whomever), was right that no one stepped up (this time).

It's hard for me to argue with most of your points -- and I agree with you. Most (all?) cabs should be offered up whole (especially rare ones) before deciding to part them out.

HOWEVER.

Where I take issue is making the "last chance" thread mandatory. All people who WANT to save cabs are already going to take part in the last chance thread. All people who WANT to part out cabs are going to overprice their complete cab (or price it high enough as to be full value with parts and everything included) which is more than, in my experience, most KLOVers are willing to pay.

I just don't see the rule helping the community. My two cents.

EDIT: To add: I don't see the rule HURTING the community either. I just don't see it having the intended effect.
 
i think its worth a shot. if it saves even a couple cabs, why not at least try it? if youre gonna call it a preservation society it makes sense.
 
i think its worth a shot. if it saves even a couple cabs, why not at least try it? if youre gonna call it a preservation society it makes sense.

this is the bottom line.


There are plenty of smart guys who can come up with 50 ways around the intent of this idea. It's just a good idea, let's see where it leads us.
 
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