Eprom programmer question

dyno

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
1,644
Reaction score
81
Location
Lower Mainland, Britsh Columbia
Looking to buy a eprom programmer and was wondernig if a Logical Devices Shooter programmer is a good first programmer to start with. I don't need anything fancy, just want something to use for my own games if needed. What are the typical eproms used arcade games from the 80's. What should I be looking for in a programmer?
 
A few tips....

1- Make sure your programmer has AC power, not just USB

2- Make sure you can program Texas Instrument TMS-2532

3- Bi-polar proms are also important (look for Signetics 82s123, 82s129, etc.. )


Good luck.

Steph
www.Hobbyroms.com
 
Is a Batronix USB Chip Programmer a decent programmer?

I agree with Steph's criteria for choosing a programmer, and the Batronix one doesn't meet any of them - it's USB powered, doesn't do 2532's and doesn't do bi-polar ROMs. I would skip it.
 
A few tips....

1- Make sure your programmer has AC power, not just USB
2- Make sure you can program Texas Instrument TMS-2532
3- Bi-polar proms are also important (look for Signetics 82s123, 82s129, etc.. )

Good luck.

Steph
www.Hobbyroms.com

Interesting. I've been considering a Transtronics "Pocket Programmer." From what I can tell from their descriptions:
(1) check, it's got a wall wart.
(2) Not sure about TMS2532... but it won't program the TMS2516 (apparently due to the supply voltages required). Why is this a big deal? Are there many games where one cannot substitute a "regular" (non-TI) component where one of these was used?
(3) Looks like the PP requires an add'l "I-PROM" module, for $150, to do the bi-polars...

So I'd need to better understand the "TMS" EPROM limitation before I can decide on or rule out this unit.
 
Batronix is great for me. I have burned hundreds of eproms without a problem. I haven't used it too much for arcade stuff though. I figured not being compatible with the 25 series might be a problem for some arcade stuff though.
 
I agree with Steph's criteria for choosing a programmer, and the Batronix one doesn't meet any of them - it's USB powered, doesn't do 2532's and doesn't do bi-polar ROMs. I would skip it.

One good thing about the Batronix is that it does 16-bit EPROMs without an adapter.
If your criteria really includes bipolar PROMs then you have very few choices... and you'll end up buying some huge ancient Data I/O rig. Most people are going to be better off buying a more modern and convenient burner. For the rare occasion that you need a bipolar, pay Steph to burn it. Or you can make an adapter to use a really fast NVRAM in its place:
Simtek2bipolar.jpg
 
One good thing about the Batronix is that it does 16-bit EPROMs without an adapter.
If your criteria really includes bipolar PROMs then you have very few choices... and you'll end up buying some huge ancient Data I/O rig. Most people are going to be better off buying a more modern and convenient burner. For the rare occasion that you need a bipolar, pay Steph to burn it.

Bingo. For the hobbyist the Batronix will do the vast majority of anything you will need.
 
.
(2) Not sure about TMS2532... but it won't program the TMS2516 (apparently due to the supply voltages required). Why is this a big deal? Are there many games where one cannot substitute a "regular" (non-TI) component where one of these was used?

So I'd need to better understand the "TMS" EPROM limitation before I can decide on or rule out this unit.



Yah, TI sure made a mess with those eproms...

--

The 25xx series is almost exclusively Texas Instrument TMS Eproms.

As the story goes, TI developed the TMS-2716 (2K Eprom),
as an extension of TMS-2708 (1K) before it.

These needed three voltages sources to program/use them (+5, -5, + 12).
This was more complicated and therefore more expensive.

At roughly the same time, Intel also launched "their" 2716 chip
which was different than the TMS-2716 in that it only needed
a single voltage to program (25v) and a 5V to operate.
The Intel pinout was also a bit different than the TMS pinout.

Akin to the Beta vs. VHS battle, only one could survive
and Intel proved to be the more popular, and thus, most
other manufacturers produced Intel-like 2716.

Bowing to pressure, TI also produced an Intel-like chip
but could not call it 2716 since they already had a 2716.
So they identified it as the TMS-2516.

And thus was born the 25xx series.

So the TMS-2516 is functionally the same as other 2716s,
and "should" program the same way since they use the
standard 25V voltage.

The TMS-2716 however is a very different beast,
both in pinout and programming.

The only games I know that uses these is some variation
of Bally 8080 boards ( Space Invaders, SeaWolf, etc... )

Very very few programmers can do TMS-2716 eproms.

However TMS-2516 and TMS-2532 are NOT tri-voltage devices
and "should" be programmable on standard programmers.

The problem with the 2532, is that the pinout is different from 2732s
so some programmers just don't handle them.

( TI again decided to use a different pinout
and to differentiate itself from the Intel 2732, it named it the TMS-2532.

So unlike the TMS-2516 which = 2716, the TMS-2532 != 2732 )

As for the TMS-2516, it "should" be able to program as a regular 2716
using 25V and the "Standard 50ms" algorithm.
(... but it will not program using the "Intelligent" algorithm
found om later 2716 eproms ).

So although there is no voltage limitation preventing
programmers to do 2516 or 2532, some manufacturers just got lazy
and never added to proper programming algo to program them.

That why it's important to see if TMS-2532 are supported.

So when looking at programmers,
not having TMS-2516 is no big thing because
you can use any other compatible 2716 device,
but not having TMS-2532 is a problem because many games use them.
( Pacman, DK, DigDug, Galaga, etc...
...and virtully every video or pinball sound board of the era )


Clear as mud ?

;-)

Steph
www.Hobbyroms.com
 
Last edited:
The willem GQ4 is a good low cost programmer. The software lists 2532 and 2532A as "test only" but it programs them just fine. I have done hundreds and hundreds of them with no problems.
For bi-polar proms I use the old reliable data I/O 29B.
 
Yah, TI sure made a mess with those eproms...
Clear as mud ?

;-)

Steph
www.Hobbyroms.com

Wow. Excellent. Thank you! So to make sure I've read and digested all that properly, I'd like to recap. I think I can make the following conclusions about the compatibility list of the Pocket Programmer III (http://secure.transtronics.com/osc/product_info.php/cPath/55/products_id/621):

1) (According to its list) it should be able to program regular 2716s, but *not* the TI TMS-2716. The general consequence of of this is I would be unable to program EPROMs for some of the old 8080 games (SI and the like), which utilize TMS-2716s. (Not sure if these can be jumpered to support other EPROMs, never owned one...)

1a) However, I might be able to homebrew a rig to adapt the pinouts and supply the -5V & +12V and maybe get a TMS-2716 programmed with it, it I were feeling spunky.

2) "2532" is synonomous with "TMS-2532," and 2532 and 2532A are on the compatibility list for the PP. This is important, becasue many popular early 80s video games and pins used (TMS-)2532s.

3) The rest, 2732, (non-TMS-)2716, are really non-issues.

Please correct me if I botched any of that.

If I didn't botch it, then the only significant classic arcade/pin devices I'd be unable to program with a PP are some 8080-era EPROMs, and bi-polar PROMS (unless I buy the add-on unit).
 
Lots of info to take in:) I noticed that the Batronix USB Chip Programmer is capable of programming at 25v even though it is run through the computer USB port. Also just wondering is the 2532 used on older games mainly for there sound? The reason I am asking about the batronix is a found one for fairly cheap and just want to make sure it is worth buying.
 
I noticed that the Batronix USB Chip Programmer is capable of programming at 25v even though it is run through the computer USB port.

For that matter, at least one that uses an AC adapter (the PP III) has 9VDC input from the wall-wart transformer. I suppose all of them must have DC-to-DC converters to step up the power supply voltage (be it 5V or 9V) to the various programming voltages required. So I, too, am uncertain that I understand why a USB-powered unit is necessarily inadequate. Unless it's a current/power thing. I wouldn't guess that very much power is used to program an EPROM, but I don't really know...
 
Wow. Excellent. Thank you! So to make sure I've read and digested all that properly, I'd like to recap. I think I can make the following conclusions about the compatibility list of the Pocket Programmer III (http://secure.transtronics.com/osc/product_info.php/cPath/55/products_id/621):

1) (According to its list) it should be able to program regular 2716s, but *not* the TI TMS-2716. The general consequence of of this is I would be unable to program EPROMs for some of the old 8080 games (SI and the like), which utilize TMS-2716s. (Not sure if these can be jumpered to support other EPROMs, never owned one...)

Correct.
ANY programmer can do normal 2716,
but very very few can do the TMS-2176.

And like I said, the only boards I now that "might" use a TMS-2716
are the old Bally 8080, but those can be jumpered for just about
any type of eprom, including TMS-2708, "regular" 2716, 2732
and even some bipolar proms.

In 8 years and 10,000+ eproms, I've only ever had to use the TMS-2716 twice...
So no big loss there...



1a) However, I might be able to homebrew a rig to adapt the pinouts and supply the -5V & +12V and maybe get a TMS-2716 programmed with it, it I were feeling spunky.


...or you can send me a token fee, and I'll do it for you in 3 minutes.... ;-)


2) "2532" is synonomous with "TMS-2532," and 2532 and 2532A are on the compatibility list for the PP. This is important, becasue many popular early 80s video games and pins used (TMS-)2532s.

Correct. 2532 and TMS-2532 is virtually synonymous .
TI (TMS) probably produced 95% of all 2532 in existence.
I only know of Motorola and Hatichi that made 2532's,
but those are very uncommon...

As for the "A" (2532A), the means they program at 21V rather than 25V.
It's an important factor, because using 25V will most likely damage a 2532A


3) The rest, 2732, (non-TMS-)2716, are really non-issues.

Correct.
Those are "bread and butter" eproms that every programmer can do.



If I didn't botch it, then the only significant classic arcade/pin devices I'd be unable to program with a PP are some 8080-era EPROMs, and bi-polar PROMS (unless I buy the add-on unit).

Like I said, 8080 boards can be jumpered to just about any other type of eproms,
so that should not be a problem.

As for bi-polar proms, that's a WHOLE other story.
They need a "current" (rather than a voltage) to physically "burn" the fuses.
(...that's why proms are not re-usable ) .
"Current" programming (ie proms) requires different power supply requirements
so many lower-end programmers don't have this.

And just to be anal, proms come in two major varieties
(...just like eproms came in NMOS technology first, then CMOS ),
prom were originally made with high-current Ni-Chrome technology which required
ALOT of current (200-250mA), then made with lower current (80-110mA) Ni-Cr
which are more common.

So even though your programmer can do proms, it might not do older proms
(namely Intersils proms and MMI 53/63xx series ).

That's why, unlike eproms where all 2716 pretty much all program the same way,
it's VERY important to select the exact bipolar prom type.

... phew... class dismissed !

;-)

Steph
 
I, too, am uncertain that I understand why a USB-powered unit is necessarily inadequate. Unless it's a current/power thing.


Exactly.

The early eproms need 25V power for programming.

USB provides a nomimal 12V voltage,
so trying to push it to 25V makes it unstable.
(...it wasn't designed to do this ... )

Programming pulses (25V) have a small tolerance for error.
If your USB power dips to 23V momentarily, you'll mess-up the programming.

That why, for older 25V eproms, you should have AC power with a decent transformer
that will give you clean, stable power.

This is particularly true for 2716 and 2732 eprom which are often 25V.

Starting with 2764's (...and 2732A) , programming voltages dropped to 21V,
and with 27128's, most were down to 12.5V .

That why USB-only programmers are fine for "newer" eproms ( 27128 and up),
but often fail with older (25V) eproms.


Steph
 
USB provides a nomimal 12V voltage,
so trying to push it to 25V makes it unstable.
(...it wasn't designed to do this ... )
Actually, USB provides 5V, not 12V. But the circuitry in the programmer IS designed to do this... that's what a boost (or boost-buck) switched-mode power supply does. The problem is that USB is current limited to 500mA @ 5V, which in the perfect world would be 100mA @ 25V, except that there's loss of efficiency when converting voltages like that... plus the current draw of the programming circuitry, which probably uses the normal 5V.

That said... I have programmed lots of old chips on my GQ-4X (2716, 2732, etc), and have yet to have any problems, and have yet to need an external power adapter.

DogP
 
That said... I have programmed lots of old chips on my GQ-4X (2716, 2732, etc), and have yet to have any problems, and have yet to need an external power adapter.

DogP

Same here, I have done tons of 2716 and up with the GQ4x with no problems. However, I do use an external supply. I leave it hooked up all the time.
I also have a pocket programmer III and it will get errors if you dont use the external power.
 
An old ancient Data I/O Series 22 will program the TMS-2716 chips from both Motorola and TI. (It's funny to see a Motorola chip with a "TMS2716" part # on it!)

You can also get a PROM module for it but you better get it WITH the programmer to get the software on ROM that is needed to use that module or you'll just have a paperweight.

A TopMax programmer from eeTools will program many different PLA and PROM chips. That's what I use daily and I have a backup of it too - just in case.

Between those two programmers I can program just about anything under the sun, including 24 pin 64K EPROMs (Motorola 68764/68766) and those odd pesky 28 pin 512k bank switched EPROMs (Intel 27C513)

RJ
 
The Batronix programmer is USB power only and I have never had a problem with 2716s or 2732s.
 
Back
Top Bottom