Counterfit IC?

DarrenF

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I got this 6809E recently, and it doesn't work. Is it just me, or does it look counterfit? The date code appears to be 0913. Does Motorola really still make these??
 

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Well, from the Wikipedia page on Motorola:

"In 1999 Motorola spun off their analog IC, digital IC and transistor business to ON Semiconductor of Phoenix Arizona. In 2004 they spun off their microprocessor business to Freescale Semiconductor of Austin, Texas."

So, no, moto didn't make that.

I don't see the 6809 on Freescale's site at this point.

Problem with date codes is that they weren't always Month/year or year/month, they were often stranger.

Pictures I can find on-line are all older (no circled-m logo) and have a very different second line.
 
I got this 6809E recently, and it doesn't work. Is it just me, or does it look counterfit? The date code appears to be 0913. Does Motorola really still make these??

That date code is probably the day the supplier in China resurfaced the chip and sprayed on the part # you requested :(

- James
 
Prob fake. Also those 6809's apparently have a ton of different versions, and the EP on the end might not work with whatever you're trying to put it in. It's probably not even a 6809 anything though, just whatever part they had laying around that had the same number of pins.

If you need some, I'd suggest buying them from Riptor at www.TwistyWristArcade.com because you'll know they're real.
 
6809 = CPU with internal clock generator
6809E = CPU without internal clock generator (E = External clock)

They are not interchangeable.

P is just for the case style (black epoxy)
 
6809 = CPU with internal clock generator
6809E = CPU without internal clock generator (E = External clock)

They are not interchangeable.

P is just for the case style (black epoxy)

That chip may or may not work but that e on the end may be your only problem. You might try an external clock just to see if that chip is counter fit.

Great info Channelmanic as always.
 
I got this 6809E recently, and it doesn't work. Is it just me, or does it look counterfit? The date code appears to be 0913. Does Motorola really still make these??

13th week of 2009 - not hardly a valid part. Thing about the Chinese - they think *everybody* wants new parts but they have no clue as to when the parts were actually made so the date codes are nearly always fubared.

As others have said -- Moto CPU section became Freescale long before the date marked on that part.
According to Freescale's website -- Last time buy date was 01 APR 1994, Last time ship was 28 Sep 1994. You won't find any of these with Motorola marking and a date code newer than 1995.

Dead giveaway that this part was "blacktopped" -- Motorola tooling holes are always smooth. You can see the paint texture within the two tooling holes. This doesn't hold true to all mfrs but does for Motorola parts and Rockwell 65xx series (another popularly counterfeited series).

What you have are 40 pin counterfeited parts. They might actually be true 6809's under that black top or may be nearly anything else (even empty). Just happens to be what they had available when somebody went to them and said "I need x qty of MC6809P's".

A few other interesting things:
http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/tech_Counterfeits.asp
 
From that webpage:
There are lots of sellers to avoid on ebay due to counterfeiting. The list changes nearly daily - ebay rarely kicks the sellers off for selling fake parts. And when the seller is kicked off the site, they re-emerge again under a different name. Here are *some* of the worst offenders on ebay:
Goodbuy711
funkward-tech
polida2008
hkutsource
ericcheungelectronic
cappro
xiaobao_semi
allhomesales / Leemoom611
jk_parts
junfang999
adeleparts2010
and several variations of "partspipe"

I can vouch for that. Ended up buying a counterfeit PPU from these guys. I'm surprised the damn thing worked at all:

 
That ebay seller hkutsource appears to sell nothing but counterfeit parts. Their feedback is horrible, I dont know why they are even allowed to keep their account.
I have several tubes of counterfeit dac's here that are actually remarked 74HC244. I got them in a bulk deal and all the other parts were genuine.
Date codes are a good indicator like Ed said. The Chineese always use new date codes and its a dead giveaway when you know a part was discontinued years ago.
Another good indication is the markings. Size, font type and color are what you need to look at. They used alot of different font type and size on these 40 pin chips over the years so you almost need to compare to be sure. I have seen counterfeits where the font type and size were correct but the location was wrong or the color is wrong. Alot of newer chips use the brown text so if you see that with an old date code you should question it.
Basically im saying if you buy IC's from Chineese sellers its just like pulling the handle on a slot machine. Your pretty safe buying cheap stuff like TTL because its not worth the time to counterfeit. However, they do restamp them but its usually a real part but a less popular manufacturer. Example, they will restamp a signetics, fairchild, samsung or any other cheaper brand to motorola or TI. TI are always worth more so thats the most popular.
Its a big deal and not something that is easily addressed. I read an article once about it and it said counterfeiting costs US company billions in sales.
 
That date code is probably the day the supplier in China resurfaced the chip and sprayed on the part # you requested :(
Prob fake. Also those 6809's apparently have a ton of different versions, and the EP on the end might not work with whatever you're trying to put it in. It's probably not even a 6809 anything though, just whatever part they had laying around that had the same number of pins.
6809 = CPU with internal clock generator
6809E = CPU without internal clock generator (E = External clock)
They are not interchangeable.
P is just for the case style (black epoxy)
13th week of 2009 - not hardly a valid part. Thing about the Chinese - they think *everybody* wants new parts but they have no clue as to when the parts were actually made so the date codes are nearly always fubared.
One of my favorite stories. Scroll to the bottom and you can follow the story to see how they strip the package down, identify the IC, and contact the manufacturer.
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/350

Thanks to all who responded. Seems the consensus is that it is in fact counterfit.

Just to follow up on, and clarify a few points....

I didn't buy this from an ebay seller (I rarely buy anything on ebay). I don't keep exact records, but odds are I got it from either Jameco or Bob Roberts. I'll check through some packing slips and see if I can be more certain about where it came from. I know I bought it within the past year.

EDIT: I'm now >90% sure this came from Jameco. I found an invoice where I bought a 6809E from them this past February.
I cannot find any record of having bought any from Bob.

I understand the difference between the 6809 and 6809E. And to fully clarify, it's just the oscillator circuitry that's "external" on the E version; both require an external crystal. Anyhow, I needed, ordered, and have 6809E CPUs (and the pic of of an E). I haven't encountered an arcade PCB that takes a 6809 (w/o E). Everything I've dealt with has been a 6809E (Williams Robotron/Joust/etc., Konami stuff, even Lethal Enforcers). Can anyone name some arcade boards that use a "non-E" 6809??

Interesting read about the Sparkfun counterfit story. I'm going to try some solvents on the top of mine, to see if there's anything printed under what's there now. If that doesn't reveal anything, I may try melting the plastic case away in an oven at work...
 
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I hit it with every solvent I could find. Acetone/toluene took off the paint/ink that was there, but I didn't see anything else underneath. Also, no black came off.

Striking out with the label, I broke out the heat gun to see what it would do to the package. Got it up to 500F, but no melting. Apparently it's a thermoset plastic.

No problem... time to get the torch. It still didn't melt. It burned briefly, then just charred. Took several iterations of charring and scraping with a little screwdriver to get to the die. But I got there!

Took the silicon out. It's exactly 5mm x 5mm. Cleaned it off with acetone. I'll post some pics when my laptop is charged...
 
I'll post some pics when my laptop is charged...

OK. Here are some pics.

First one is the bottom side of the package, before destruction.

2nd is after solvents on the top (label mostly removed) and heat gun attempts (no visible effect), and set up for the torch treatment.

3rd is what it looked like after several minutes of the torch. Mosly a white char residue.
 

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I knocked/scraped the char off. (1st pic)

After a few more iterations of charring and knocking the residue off, the internal connections became more visible, then finally... the chip itself (2nd pic). The bonding wires did not survive the process.
 

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The bonding wires did not survive the process.

:)

I'll be happy to photograph it under a microscope if you don't have the equipment.

I've added a die shot of a 55516 CVSD chip that was used for speech on many Williams games (including Sinistar), as well as a Special Chip 2 (part of the encapsulation stuck to the die and I haven't spent any time trying to clean it off, but you can tell that there aren't many changes from the SC1).

http://www.seanriddle.com/willy.html#news

Sean
 
It looks like it was a MC68B09P restamped as a MC6809EP.

Wow, good eye. I noticed that markings were visible when it was charred, but I just glanced at them and the appeared (mostly) the same so I didn't scrutinize them.

Sure enough, just like you noted, it appears to have been originally marked as MC68B09P. So it is (was) actually not only a 6809, but a faster version (2MHz vice 1MHz)... just not the variety that works with an external ocsillator (which explains why it didn't work in Stargate). Also looks like it was made in late 1989 :)

Close-up pics of the original and charred markings attached.

:)

I'll be happy to photograph it under a microscope if you don't have the equipment.

Sean

Thanks, Sean. We've got a pretty sweet microscope at work. If I can't get some time on it, I'll take you up on that. Or even if I can, I'll happily send you the die when I'm done if you want to try taking a look at it.
 

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Oh, and here's the final extraction of the die from the charred mess...
 

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