Bram Stoker's Dracula multiball issue

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Having a problem with my Bram Stoker's Dracula during multiball modes. If a single ball drains, the machine thinks all the balls have drained, regardless if you have one bouncing around on the playfield. This is especially frustrating on a third ball and it shuts everything down and you watch your non-drained ball fall away.

The machine will also occasionally launch two balls into play instead of one (I think it's trying to load the right mist gate), though I'm not sure if this is related to the multiball problem.

I'm currently not getting any error messages. The left mist gate doesn't work 100 percent but most of the time it's fine.

Anyone else experience this problem?
 
Never played BSD so I'm taking a shot in the dark here.

Two balls getting launched at the same time is usually a flakey shooter lane switch. HOWEVER for instance on my LOTR I have a lane protector which causes the ball to bounce and since the machine is timed to detect a ball in a certain amount of time (multi ball) it'll shoot another ball where I end up with two getting launched at the same time.

For your "dead ball" issue I would say either a trough opto is either dirty or isn't working or if that has trough switches a bad switch.

To test an opto remove the balls, get a digital camera, shut the lights off and you should see a glow from each emitter (one side only) of the trough. If each emitter had a glow then clean the lens'.
If the trough has micro switches, get a multi meter, set it to Ohms and
meter the switch on and off. Basically your reading should be consistent. If the numbers are flakey replace the switch. Honestly using resitance test instead of Ohms proves the same thing. ;)

Hope that helps ya out.
 
Having a problem with my Bram Stoker's Dracula during multiball modes. If a single ball drains, the machine thinks all the balls have drained, regardless if you have one bouncing around on the playfield. This is especially frustrating on a third ball and it shuts everything down and you watch your non-drained ball fall away.

The machine will also occasionally launch two balls into play instead of one (I think it's trying to load the right mist gate), though I'm not sure if this is related to the multiball problem.

I'm currently not getting any error messages. The left mist gate doesn't work 100 percent but most of the time it's fine.

Anyone else experience this problem?

It sounds like you've got a switch in the trough that's not working or pressed down (I cannot remember if this one uses optos in the trough or switches, I think switches). Go look at your trough, and do a switch test in the options. There will be your problems, I think. The game isn't some all knowing entity. If it thinks that a ball is in the trough due to a switch error, it's doing what it thinks is the right thing.
 
Likely trough switches or mist ball opto's. Go into test mode and verify they are working. Mine had a similar problem and it turned out to be the mist ball wasnt fully blocking the long throw opto on the right side. I added a small piece of foam to the plate that the ball rests on and it fixed the problem.
 
I would remove the apron, go into switch edge test, and roll a ball along the trough and be sure each switch works, and that the wire the ball pushes down isn't sticking on the sides of the trough. And be sure the last one isn't getting hit by the ball kicker that pushes a ball to the shooter lane.

Then roll a ball down the shooter lane so it rests in position to be kicked, make sure that switch is working, and staying closed. And opens when the ball goes off of it.

LTG :)
 
BSD will load a ball to the right mist gate if one is already not present there. For example, if you exit the test menu it will unload the awaiting mist ball in whichever gate it is in and then shoot another one under the shooter lane ramp and into the right mist gate. It will do this when you power up the game sometimes as well, but I think only if there has recently been an error with the mist function. However it should not try and load a mist ball during a game unless you actually got mist multi, and even then it does it very quickly so it wouldn't interfere with your next ball.

And I agree with others about checking trough switches. BSD will recognize that a ball is still in play, via switchs being activated on the PF, even if a ball drains. This happens sometimes on my BSD when I shoot the left ramp to Castle Lock a ball and the ball is going so fast it flies of the ramp and back onto the PF. It allows me to shoot the other ball from the shooter lane, and I'll let on of the bald drain so as to not unfairly get points. The game allows me to continue despite one ball draining when should only be one ball on the PF. So yours might be seeing more balls in the trough than are actually there, and at that point assuming there CAN'T be anymore in play.
 
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Thanks for the input everyone. Here's an update.

We tested the trough switches and they all seemed to work fine. Same with the mist optos and shooter lane switch. It's still miscounting on multiballs, but as far as we can tell it always seems to happen on the third ball.

Compounding the confusion is the fact the left mist gate is screwed up. Not getting the action needed for the spring to move the gate. Occasionally a ball in play will knock a ball out of the left gate and suddenly you've got two on the playfield when you should have one. It looks like a mechanical issue. Will look closer next time.

Ball launch is very weak quite often, enough so that the ball won't make it up to the top gates. Other times it shoots great. Coil/sleeve issue?

Also strongly considering replacing the bridge rectifier (BR2) and main caps on the power board. I've worked on boards before but don't want to if I don't have to. Haven't done any DMM testing but here's what the boards tell me:

CPU Board:
LED D21 (+5vdc) never turns on. Should be on at startup and during regular operation. Other LEDs normal.

Power Board:
LED 3 (one of two high/low voltage sensors) flickers when it should be off. All others seem fine.

I know bad power can cause some weird problems. Obviously there are some power issues. Any thoughts?
 
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I would deff. fix your power issues before going to far into the other issues.

But on the left mist gate issue, you can test it in the mist test menu. You can control the gate up and down and it should go up and down smoothly each time. The gate's solenoid is controled by the Fliptronics board.

Even with the left gate down, a mist ball stored in there can occasionally be knocked out by a ball in play. It shouldn't happen very often though, unless the gate isn't closing or is missing entirely.

To make sure BOTH gates end up working FULLY, read my RGP thread here http://rgparchive.com/rgpforum/showthread.php?t=366655 which deals with installing a cap on the Fliptronics board to solve right gate problems. Its worth checking to see if yours has the cap, because if it doesn't, you will probably have more intermitant issues with the gates.
 
Thanks Count.

Interesting read on your Fliptronics board issue. I did not look closely at that particular board last night, but from what I can tell everything in there is original (and looks damn near new). I did see a C2 cap on the power board that looked quite bulged and figured it could probably use a replacement as well.

Looks like caps and BR2 are next on the agenda. My hope is the voltage issues could be causing the miscounting problems, but I'm not sure. Guess we'll find out :)
 
The board will have the cap if it is a Fliptronics board from a BSD. If it isn't, it probably won't have the cap. The Flip. boards are swapable between games, so it would be likely that alot of the BSDs out there got a board swapped at some point in it's life. In my case, the Flip. board wasn't original to my machine, but the issue it caused wouldn't have been one that an op would have caught or even cared about.
 
Brief update - I also checked the J101 connector on the driver board and it is fried. It actually sort of collapsed in my hand as I attempted to reseat it. I'm preparing to order new header and male pins, but the machine is officially down for the time being.

I also tested TP2 on the driver board and was only getting 4.87 volts or so. The reset issue is starting to come a bit more into focus. An upgraded C4 cap on the driver board (upping it to 470uf, 25v) may also be in order.

The mis-counting problem continues on multiballs, however. The machine was just flat-out confused by the time we stopped playing it last night. Extra balls being launched, saved balls ignored, just absolute chaos. I want to get these power problems resolved so I can concentrate on that issue, because that's the one that frustrates me.
 
Bump for an update.

About 90 percent of the power problems are gone. With the summer electrical draw just about over now and the new connector at J101 it's been working very well. Maybe two resets in two weeks or so. A huge improvement. That's not to say that work on the driver board won't happen, but I think I can put it off for a little bit.

The left mist gate coil seems to be dead/weak. When the coil is energized it doesn't have the power to pull the arm flush against it, thereby moving the spring/gate assembly. I can get the arm to stick if I hold it there, but it won't snap to it. I'm testing about 60v at the coils during test but still no action. The gate and spring look like they could be adjusted if need be, but if the coil isn't moving the arm it's a moot point. I considering just buying a new coil and seeing what happens.

Also, if anyone has a pic of their left mist gate assembly, I'd love to see it. I'm curious if my arrangement is the same.

The multiball issues continue. Although I did fix a couple things trying to address that issue:

• The outhole kicker was retracting very, very slowly and I thought this might be causing some inadvertent switch triggering. I disassembled it and cleaned a fair amount of black sticky stuff from the metal-on-metal parts. Put it back together and it's working like a charm now. Kicks hard and smooth, quick retract. It did not solve the multiball problem.

• Next I took a look at this chitzy wire gate mounted at the apex of the trough. It's apparently supposed to keep the balls from coming back down the trough into the outhole. It was not doing it's job and the kicker would have to fire it four or five times to get it to stay in the next open trough spot (and causing a flurry of switches to fire up and down the trough). I couldn't find any information on this gate or any images, so I just bent it until it seemed to be operating correctly. It seems to be working pretty well now, though not 100 percent of the time. Part of the reason is the wire is so thin it gets disfigured easily – I don't know if it's a homemade gate or what. It's much thinner than the mist gates. Does anyone have a photo of their trough wire gate?

I was hopeful one of those two things would clear up the early multiball endings, but that was not to be. I'm not sure what to look at next.

Oh, and my Fliptronics board does have the C2 cap. I don't think I ever confirmed that.

Any thoughts are appreciated!
 
I'm on a camping trip in the middle of nowhere (aren't smartphones great :) ) but when I get home I'll be happy to take pics of the left gate assembly and the trough gate. Btw, the trough gate is thinner wire than the mist gates, but shouldn't bend too easily.
 
Thanks, Count, I'd appreciate it! Sometimes it helps to see a working example in order to see why something won't work. I'll try to get some pics myself for comparison.

My trough wire gate must be homemade, probably out of a paperclip or something. And not just that, a very thin paper clip. It would never be mistaken for one of the mist gates.
 
http://www.marcospecialties.com/product.asp?ic=12-6542

Here is the gate you need for the ball trough....

It really sounds to me like you have opto issues. Are you sure you trough switches are working properly??

If you are getting balls back, balls ignored, etc. That would make me think your opto's aren't sensing balls properly....



Tom
 
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http://www.marcospecialties.com/product.asp?ic=12-6542

Here is the gate you need for the ball trough....

It really sounds to me like you have opto issues. Are you sure you trough switches are working properly??

If you are getting balls back, balls ignored, etc. That would make me think your opto's aren't sensing balls properly....



Tom

Thanks for that link, Tom! Sometimes browsing Marco can make your head swim. I'll probably pick one of these up.

The trough switches appear to be working properly, but I agree, I would think the miscounting is happening there. The trough on BSD is all microswitches, no optos there. Test mode indicates they all work like they should but it's hard to replicate multiball game conditions in test mode.

That gate might make a difference, as anytime the ball doesn't stick in the trough after the outhole kicks it up there it comes back down and hits all the open switches again. That sounds like a recipe for problems.

The optos for the mist ball all seem to be working correctly, as well.
 
I had alot of weird trough related issues with my WCS94 when I first got it. Mine was completely missing that trough ball gate. I didn't even know it existed until I started asking around RGP.

Good luck.

I own a BSD too, great game, I guess I should know the trough uses microswitches, but I've never had to work on the trough for mine yet :)
 
An update from the world of BSD multiball issues - I've taken a lot of this conversation to PM with The Count (who has been patient and insanely helpful), but I thought I'd bring it back to see if anyone else has further input.

Like most everyone pointed out, it's down to the optos or the trough switches. I have the switches for the trough and plan to do that at my next convenience. Just a matter of time.

I've also noticed some flakiness in the long-throw opto for mist ball. While most of the time it works fine, occassionaly in test mode it will stay open even though the mist ball has been released. The beam seems to be firing, so I'm guessing there is probably an issue with the receiver? I get no errors at this time.

And since I'm on the topic of optos - for you BSD owners, on which side of the playfield is the transmitter? On mine the transmitter is on the right and receiver on the left, but the manual seems to indicate it should be the other way. Is it different on anyone else's machine and should it even matter?

Since they seem off anyway, I'm planning on ordering new optos to go with the new trough switches. The part numbers for those optos in the manual (A-14315 and A-14316) are not easy to find. The only thing I can really find are the Williams/Bally optos at Pinball Life (A-16908 and A-16909). Terry said he wasn't sure if they were interchangeable. Anyone else have any idea?

Here are those optos at Pinball Life: http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=19&pg=1

Thanks for any info, guys!
 
And since I'm on the topic of optos - for you BSD owners, on which side of the playfield is the transmitter? On mine the transmitter is on the right and receiver on the left, but the manual seems to indicate it should be the other way. Is it different on anyone else's machine and should it even matter?

I can check mine tomorrow but no it should not make a difference...

as far as replacing them, just replace the LED and photo transistor on the original PCB.. should cost a couple dollars...

BSD's I think have a curse... mine had a major failure a couple weeks ago, 5v regulator failed dramatically and fried almost every single IC on every single board... including the ASIC, RAM, CPU's, synth chip, several 74LS374's and other 74 series logic ic's etc
 
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The transmitter is on the right and the reciever on the left, the manual is wrong on that.

They are the standard Williams/Bally optos, so you can buy the $7 opto set, or solder new $.75 emitters to your assemblies. The tricky part will be re-aligning the new optos. You will have to get into test mode and play with their positions to get them to align. Putting a half inch piece of heat shrink on the transmitter assembly, aimed at the reciever, will help focus the beam and make your job easier. Just remember to remove the heat shrink when you're done.
 
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