Black Tiger freezes, Monaco GP won't turn right, TRON graphics glitch

Mike Valmike

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Black Tiger freezes, Monaco GP won't turn right, TRON graphics glitch

Hi folks.

So, it's my first post here. I am sure it won't be the last by any means. First and foremost I am really impressed with some of the restoration work you guys have done. It really inspires me to get better at this. I used to work as an arcade tech almost 20 years ago but my main job was to make sure the machines took money and every button worked -- it didn't much matter how they looked or their overall condition. Now I've returned to the arcade world and I'm amazed at some of the restoration work I am seeing.

I am part owner and the one and only tech at a vintage arcade and hobby game store that just opened in Gilbert, AZ called Desert Sky Games. After an electrical blowout sidelined our Neo Geo, we ended up with 8 working games to open, and two of them are already out of commission and a third is glitching! I'm not feeling like I've done a very good job here. What kills me is that all three were at 100% the day before we opened the doors and I can't even tell what I (or anyone else) did to screw them up. Most of my pro work was on Capcom, SNK, and Midway fighters from the mid-1990s. Doesn't exactly capture the nostalgia of my childhood games of the early '80s golden age, but it paid the rent. So perhaps by no coincidence at all, my fighters are all up and running and the problems are in the other units.

Our five uprights still in working order, there but for the grace go I, are our Star Wars, Gauntlet, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Puzzle Fighter, and X-Men vs SF. The Star Wars monitor is starting to look a little rough so down the road I'll be looking here for suggestions on what to do about that. The other four could stand LCD conversions, but are otherwise doing well. Especially Gauntlet, that thing is burned in beyond anything, but that hard plastic bezel looks like it won't be easy to work around so I might be content to put in a recapped CRT and let it go at that.

So here are the three that I'm at a loss on. I ran searches on all three and found some info but I'm not really sure what to do next.

BLACK TIGER -- I converted this one out of some terrible billiards game that had the right cabinet configuration and I thought I had it really working well. There was flagging in the monitor but it wasn't on part of the screen you really looked at while playing and the colors were extremely rich and bright. But now, out of nowhere, it just locks up and freezes every now and then... intervals between half an hour and several hours, I can't seem to narrow it down. Whether it's being played or not, the entire game just hard locks with a static image on the screen of whatever it was just displaying. The wiring on this one wasn't anything I would write home about when I got it, but every connection seemed to run complete so if it's electrical then I'm not seeing it. Is this a known thing with BT PCBs? Couldn't find anyone else asking about this.
Photo: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...9955691.106517.388614421157680&type=3&theater


MONACO GP -- Exactly as the title says, no matter what you do with the steering wheel, you can't turn right, only left or straight ahead. This doesn't seem like the most challenging thing to fix but after a thorough cleaning I didn't make any headway. Is there something I am failing to look for? It's the upright mini MGP cabinet. I haven't worked on a lot of racing games so maybe this is something really basic I don't know yet.

TRON -- I am having the graphical glitch with lines through the sprites as seen in the bottom pic in is thread here:
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=218828
The caption on the pic says it's a corrupt ROM. I'm not sure what to do about that. I bought the TRON off eBay from Tim the Arcade Guy and it worked fine at first, except that some video colors seemed slightly off -- enemy light bikes were blue (but gave yellow trails) and my tank was blue and not red, but there were no lines. In fact, even now when I open up the back, clean everything off, and reboot, it works great for a few minutes and then the glitch shows back up. I even replaced the old ribbon cables with some off eBay in somewhat better shape and still the same result. What do I do about this? Do I have to buy a new TRON PCB?
Photo: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...9955691.106517.388614421157680&type=3&theater

I'll try to post some photos so you guys can see what I am working with. Thanks in advance for any guidance at all you can offer. That one hint might be what leads me to figure it out the rest of the way. Once again thanks so much.
 
RE: your TRON problem, too bad you weren't closer, I have some backup boards I pull chips off to track down problems. Hopefully the following won't be too confusing....

If I'm reading it right, other than certain worng colors, that video glitch is not constantly present, but shows up after a few minutes. From my experience, if the ROM is bad, the error is always present (because the ROM is corrupted), so I'm dobuting that is the problem. Did you replace the cables with other used cables off ebay, or new cables. These MCR ribbon cables can look fine and still not work 100%. Think about picking up some new ones from Bob Roberts.

I had a problem on my UDOT with graphics symptoms similar to this:
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=141853

I originally thought it was the Video RAM, so I swapped them out. The problem went away for about 30 min or so, but came back. I reseated the chips and the problem went away, for about another 30 min. Finally, I jiggled the boardstack and all connectors and noticed that the problem would disappear/reappear. I ended up putting in thin cardstock in between the top edge connectors and the piece of wood/metal that holds the boardstack in place. I figured that somehow the metal was contacting something on the board causing a short. The game has had 3 or so hours of on time and the problem has not reappeared. If your cables are truly good, I'm guessing that somewhere in the boardstack (most likely the VidGen board), something is shorting.
 
If I'm reading it right, other than certain worng colors, that video glitch is not constantly present, but shows up after a few minutes. From my experience, if the ROM is bad, the error is always present (because the ROM is corrupted), so I'm dobuting that is the problem. Did you replace the cables with other used cables off ebay, or new cables. These MCR ribbon cables can look fine and still not work 100%. Think about picking up some new ones from Bob Roberts.

Correct, I can power up clean except the color anomalies, and the glitch comes back a little while after power-up. I bought used cables off eBay figuring I might get stuck buying actual SCSI ribbons at Fry's Electronics or something. Googling from your Bob Roberts suggestion, I am thinking that might be an even better idea!! I never knew about that guy but I instantly want to buy like four of everything he has listed on his site!

I ended up putting in thin cardstock in between the top edge connectors and the piece of wood/metal that holds the boardstack in place. I figured that somehow the metal was contacting something on the board causing a short. The game has had 3 or so hours of on time and the problem has not reappeared. If your cables are truly good, I'm guessing that somewhere in the boardstack (most likely the VidGen board), something is shorting.

Wow I hope you're exactly right. I will try this and see what happens and report back tomorrow or Tuesday. Cardstock isn't a problem, I have lots of that :) The Vid gen board is the middle one, right? At the PCB level I'm still a bit of a greenhorn.

UPDATE on the Black Tiger freeze:

I switched PCBs between the BT and the Street Fighter 2 cabinet. Neither froze after over an hour of on time and plenty of jostling the cabinets, controls, and coin doors. I switched them back and the BT still never froze. One possibility occurred to me: We had a huge crowd there Saturday and it was about 115 degrees outside, and our A/C struggled to keep the room below 80 degrees. The BT cabinet is old and not especially well vented, and in fact I don't think there are any fans or circulation inside the cabinet. Could it have been freezing from overheating circuits? Should I consider putting in a fan or two, or possibly pulling out the heat-emitting CRT and putting in an LCD? The CRT is bright and beautiful except for slight top edge flagging, and I wonder if it would be compatible with my heavily burned-in Gauntlet as a replacement for that monitor anyway.

UPDATE on the Monaco GP steering wheel:

Opened and cleaned again, tried reconnecting wiring to see if I was shorting something. Now the gear shift lever isn't responding. Yeah. I don't want to dump the game because all the score panels work perfectly and most of the ones I've found don't have that, and it's the game younger kids seem to enjoy the most at the shop because even they understand to steer around the other cars. I'll do some more work on this one and see what I can learn from it.

THANKS for replying!!!
 
Just FYI, it may not be shorting in the same place my UDOT was. The plastic standoffs on the TRON boardstack can become flimsy and allow the boards to touch each other if the stack is not placed in the holder correctly. It also could be a poor solder joint that when the game heats up causes thermal expansion and the contacts aren't perfect. The VidGen board is the bottom board in the stack (the one next to the cabinet wall when assembled). It has "Video Gen" screened near where the ribbon cables connect.

Once the new SCSI cables arrive, make sure to firmly seat all chips on the all the boards and see what happens from there. If the problems persist, then start looking for bad solder joints or possible component contact on the VidGen board.

As for some sprites being the wrong color, I've not encountered that before. Perhaps you do have some corrupted ROMs. Unfortunately there's no easy test for that, you just need to either have access to a known working board or order new ROMs.
 
Just FYI, it may not be shorting in the same place my UDOT was. The plastic standoffs on the TRON boardstack can become flimsy and allow the boards to touch each other if the stack is not placed in the holder correctly. It also could be a poor solder joint that when the game heats up causes thermal expansion and the contacts aren't perfect. The VidGen board is the bottom board in the stack (the one next to the cabinet wall when assembled). It has "Video Gen" screened near where the ribbon cables connect.

Once the new SCSI cables arrive, make sure to firmly seat all chips on the all the boards and see what happens from there. If the problems persist, then start looking for bad solder joints or possible component contact on the VidGen board.

As for some sprites being the wrong color, I've not encountered that before. Perhaps you do have some corrupted ROMs. Unfortunately there's no easy test for that, you just need to either have access to a known working board or order new ROMs.

OK, I tried what you said and I think you were right, but that the board is just worse than we thought. Now I hope you'll let me ask your opinion of what to do next.

I first gently masking taped some cardstock around the back and sides of the vid gen board to get it some isolation, and then put the whole thing down and powered up to see what would happen. Success! The color anomalies were still present but the glitching was GONE! I played for about 20 mins and had no other problems, except I did notice my monitor was starting to flag on the right side... never spotted that before, so it's probably a good thing I was working on it.

Then I powered down, went ahead and bracketed just the outer edges of the other boards with cardstock and light masking tape, then carded and taped up the metal bracket holder from the wall, put it all back, powered up, and... nothing! Oh crap! Did I just kill the whole thing somehow? No, it still worked. I took off the cardstock except the original wrap of the vid gen board and it all powered back up. I guess the other two PCBs don't like being wrapped up in paper. But... now, the TRON does the video line glitching from the moment I power it up. If indeed it was a bad contact, well, I must have gone and killed it the rest of the way. (frown)

I took the boards back out and did a clean and re-seat on all the socketed ROMs. I actually had to google to learn how to do this and which tool to go grab at Fry's Electronics (an IC extractor). Then, I cleaned every contact I could see. One thing I noticed was that there was crud and tarnishing and such all over the place. This board set was showing every minute of its 30-year age. I am aware enough of my inexperience that I didn't want to poke further this go-around, so I reassembled and repowered up, and it runs just like before, but with the line glitch right from the start and with the color anomalies and flagging monitor (which I realize is a separate problem).

So, then, I'm interested in your opinion on what I should do. I should preface this by saying this is not a collector piece so cosmetics are a lesser concern than having it working reliably (which I am coming to understand is the real trick with TRON, as Han Solo might say). It's being operated in the DSG vintage arcade and it's going to take a little bit of wear and tear on the arcade floor, and it's in reasonable shape already -- you can see photos of it on our facebook page. But it has to work properly -- that much, we've promised the customers. Do you think I ought to go ahead and buy a 100% working PCB set, or am I overlooking another simpler solution?

Also, do you (or anyone) happen to know whether the TRON monitor wiring is reasonably standard? I am seeing all the familiar connections but also several more. It's got me a little nervous about taking it apart. One lesson I've had beaten into me nicely is that when arcade hardware is working, you leave it alone. But that monitor is just going to get worse over time, and it's not fully crisp and bright right now anyway. I wonder if I should just rip the band-aid now. I have some arcade-refit LCDs on hand. Should that work, or am I going to need to get a CRT monitor particular to TRON because of wiring or anything like that. I don't mind putting some money into this whole project but at the end I need to have a working TRON that won't require constant maintenance. (I know, easy, right?)

Thanks in advance again for helping me with this!!!
 
It's possible that a chip leg has broken or is just too corroded to supply the voltage it needs. When you removed and re-seated, you may have put it over the edge. You basically have two options, find a working board set and use that, and then on a day off pull the chips from the working board and try in the original boardset to determine if the board is good. Then from there, replace the chips a few at a time until the problem shows up again and you've found the problem. Then order a new chip and you'll have 2 working boardsets. The other option is to send it to user cdjump for repair. He knows what he's doing and he has a fast turnaround time (he doesn't queue work, if he's working on anything else he'll ask you to wait).

As for the monitor, it likely only needs the capacitors replaced. If you have any soldering skills, it's a straightforward job, you just have to pay attention to values and polarity. No need to drop in a new monitor.
 
LCD monitors look terrible with classic arcade games too.

Fixing what you've got is better in almost every possible way.
 
Thanks a lot guys, that's what I am going to do! Get the main unit up and running and then see what I can reconcile with the board on a chip-by-chip hunt. And if at all possible I will keep that CRT... I'd virtually always rather keep original equipment unless it's just a total failure.
 
Hi folks.



BLACK TIGER -- I converted this one out of some terrible billiards game that had the right cabinet configuration and I thought I had it really working well. There was flagging in the monitor but it wasn't on part of the screen you really looked at while playing and the colors were extremely rich and bright. But now, out of nowhere, it just locks up and freezes every now and then... intervals between half an hour and several hours, I can't seem to narrow it down. Whether it's being played or not, the entire game just hard locks with a static image on the screen of whatever it was just displaying. The wiring on this one wasn't anything I would write home about when I got it, but every connection seemed to run complete so if it's electrical then I'm not seeing it. Is this a known thing with BT PCBs? Couldn't find anyone else asking about this.
Photo: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...9955691.106517.388614421157680&type=3&theater

First job was at Romstar. Black Tiger is pretty tolerant of voltage hums or gigs. The biggest issue I had was either an outright dead cpu or graphics issues. You tried replacing or putting a switching power supply in there yet?
 
First job was at Romstar. Black Tiger is pretty tolerant of voltage hums or gigs. The biggest issue I had was either an outright dead cpu or graphics issues. You tried replacing or putting a switching power supply in there yet?

The cab I converted it into has a switching supply; it was a sports game circa 1994. I also tried the board on my JAMMA test rig and in a nearby Street Fighter machine. I've actually been unable to get it to freeze again on any hardware, ever since that opening day when it was crowded and we got warm, etc. I wonder if it really was just an overheat? I'll take your best guess over mine any day especially since you're speaking from about as close to the source as I'd hope to find! :)

I have a backup Black Tiger PCB but it has corrupt ROMs and doesn't play properly, but it boots, so I figure that's a parts board if necessary. You're right that it must take voltage variation really well, because I was even able to power it up off a PC AT power supply, and those tend to run a bit hot at 5.4-5.5v on that lead.
 
I did notice my monitor was starting to flag on the right side...
... now, the TRON does the video line glitching from the moment I power it up.

it runs just like before, but with the line glitch right from the start and with the color anomalies and flagging monitor (which I realize is a separate problem).

A picture of this would be nice. If it's just a single line of multi-colored garbage on the far right, this is normal.

K
 
The cab I converted it into has a switching supply; it was a sports game circa 1994. I also tried the board on my JAMMA test rig and in a nearby Street Fighter machine. I've actually been unable to get it to freeze again on any hardware, ever since that opening day when it was crowded and we got warm, etc. I wonder if it really was just an overheat? I'll take your best guess over mine any day especially since you're speaking from about as close to the source as I'd hope to find! :)

I have a backup Black Tiger PCB but it has corrupt ROMs and doesn't play properly, but it boots, so I figure that's a parts board if necessary. You're right that it must take voltage variation really well, because I was even able to power it up off a PC AT power supply, and those tend to run a bit hot at 5.4-5.5v on that lead.


I would go voltage spike on opening day, thats all.

and for your other board, get the MAME roms to Black Tiger and burn a new set for your other board. It is perfectly legal for you to get the ROMS since you own the board and it is considered under backup archival doctrine.
 
I would go voltage spike on opening day, thats all.

and for your other board, get the MAME roms to Black Tiger and burn a new set for your other board. It is perfectly legal for you to get the ROMS since you own the board and it is considered under backup archival doctrine.

I did not know that! Sounds like a plan! I have no idea how to actually do that so I will have to do some looking up. I always sort of assumed one could burn ROMs to empty ICs but never had the occasion to look into it.
 
A picture of this would be nice. If it's just a single line of multi-colored garbage on the far right, this is normal.

K

Here is what it is doing:

IMG_0459.jpg
 
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I did not know that! Sounds like a plan! I have no idea how to actually do that so I will have to do some looking up. I always sort of assumed one could burn ROMs to empty ICs but never had the occasion to look into it.

E#prom programmer will become your friend.

2. on the Tron image, your issue is on the bottom spritate graphics board. The 8 data lines coming out of the graphics eprom sets go to serializers. One of them has a bad line.
 
E#prom programmer will become your friend.

2. on the Tron image, your issue is on the bottom spritate graphics board. The 8 data lines coming out of the graphics eprom sets go to serializers. One of them has a bad line.

That is amazingly specific! I have a replacement board coming in, and I will see if I can perform a repair on the current board in the meanwhile and keep it for a spare. Thanks!!!
 
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