beating a dead horse.

mrgone

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I know this topic has been brought up many times. However,it seems to me that pinball manufacturer x could save quite a bit on development of a game by not having to shell out big money for licencing rights and voice over work etc. everyone always says that the ops aren't buying unlicensed themes. that's because no one is making them.add to that most new pins are purchased by private collectors any way.if you look at the a list of 90's games. all but Adams family,Twilight Zone, are original themes. just my own thoughts on the subject. add Indiana Jones and sttng to the licenced theme list
 
Gary Stern has said many times that he has to have the licenses, primarily and especially due to the amount of games he sells overseas. It is still a good chunk of his business, as most operators over here are not gonna put a $5,000 "Pro" on route, when they can go buy a $1500 WMS/Bally game that will earn the same. That being said, of course everyone would love a non-licensed theme. Hopefully JJP will see the value in trying something unique/unlicensed. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever...
 
I know this topic has been brought up many times. However,it seems to me that pinball manufacturer x could save quite a bit on development of a game by not having to shell out big money for licencing rights and voice over work etc. everyone always says that the ops aren't buying unlicensed themes. that's because no one is making them.add to that most new pins are purchased by private collectors any way.if you look at the a list of 90's games. all but Adams family,Twilight Zone, are original themes. just my own thoughts on the subject. add Indiana Jones and sttng to the licenced theme list

Well, to kick the dead horse that you continue to beat: the pinball biz has changed. And most new pins are NOT purchased by private collectors--that is just your internet-group-centric view. License fees aren't huge. I'm not sure but I think they may be on the order of $100-$200/game? It does eat into profits, but a drop in the bucket when MSRP can easily be raised $100 without raising an eyebrow.

The reality is, Stern relies largely on pre-orders and buzz to generate sales. And that only comes from releasing a game with a popular license. Who is gonna pre-order a new Stern game with jus a generic name (like, say, Bermuda Triangle)? Quick answer: nobody. People will wait and see what the game looks like and how it plays, which means basically waiting until it is released. No pre-orders, especially not for LEs/Premiums. OTOH, lots of people (collectors/fanboys/distributors/operators) will pre-order based on theme. The days of people pre-ordering the next game just because it was being released are over. No Stern game is going to pre-sell without the 'hook' of a license that can be marketed.
 
People would line up around the block to buy or play a cool non-licensed horror pin or sci-fi pin. Haunted House 2012 with all they could do now? Sheeeeeeeeeit...money in the bank, and you're not alienating a big segment of people who care nothing for (or actively hate) AC/DC or Elvis or Bayformers.

Sure, some licenses will clean up just because of the license, but that doesn't mean every table will. It's the same backwards thinking that plagues the movie business and leads to so many expensive flops. If someone came out with an original table and created a new pinbot-style franchise, that would be ten times as valuable as another crank em out licensed title.
 
People would line up around the block to buy or play a cool non-licensed horror pin or sci-fi pin. Haunted House 2012 with all they could do now? Sheeeeeeeeeit...money in the bank, and you're not alienating a big segment of people who care nothing for (or actively hate) AC/DC or Elvis or Bayformers.

Sure, some licenses will clean up just because of the license, but that doesn't mean every table will. It's the same backwards thinking that plagues the movie business and leads to so many expensive flops. If someone came out with an original table and created a new pinbot-style franchise, that would be ten times as valuable as another crank em out licensed title.

well said sir.
 
The problem isn't the licensing cost. Let's face it, most of the good big name titles are licensed. TZ, TAF, Scared Stiff, Space Shuttle, T2, STTNG, LOTR, Spider Man, Batman, the list goes on and on of great licensed titles. 5 of the top 10 IPDB titles are licensed, and 2 more are based on public domain characters that weren't created by the pinball companies.

There's a reason all the manufacturers went under. People may bash Stern all the time, but there's one simple truth to their business practices.... they're STILL in business when everybody else collapsed. And a big chunk of that is licenses.

-Hans
 
The problem isn't the licensing cost. Let's face it, most of the good big name titles are licensed. TZ, TAF, Scared Stiff, Space Shuttle, T2, STTNG, LOTR, Spider Man, Batman, the list goes on and on of great licensed titles. 5 of the top 10 IPDB titles are licensed, and 2 more are based on public domain characters that weren't created by the pinball companies.

There's a reason all the manufacturers went under. People may bash Stern all the time, but there's one simple truth to their business practices.... they're STILL in business when everybody else collapsed. And a big chunk of that is licenses.

-Hans

yes, that is true. i look back at the early 80's sterns and my god! the art,the features,the innovations they came up with. now its one movie or band after the other. not that i dont love playing them,i do.i just long for someone to think outside the box and take a chance.
 
Gary Stern has said many times that he has to have the licenses, primarily and especially due to the amount of games he sells overseas. It is still a good chunk of his business, as most operators over here are not gonna put a $5,000 "Pro" on route, when they can go buy a $1500 WMS/Bally game that will earn the same. That being said, of course everyone would love a non-licensed theme. Hopefully JJP will see the value in trying something unique/unlicensed. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever...

Stern needs licenses because that's their business model. Stern does not create anything. Almost everything they produce is derivative. That's just what they do.

Not since P2K has any pinball company done anything innovative. We're going to have to wait and see who turns a new page in the hobby. If a company makes a truly innovative game system, the license becomes less relevant.
 
There's a reason all the manufacturers went under. People may bash Stern all the time, but there's one simple truth to their business practices.... they're STILL in business when everybody else collapsed. And a big chunk of that is licenses.

IMO, Stern is still in business because:

1. They have no competition and there's enough of a market left for them to cover their expenses.

2. They have been operating on a certain business model which has managed to remain somewhat lucrative. But by modern business standards, Stern should have been retired years ago - they really aren't experiencing any growth.

3. Stern has the resources, networks and facilities to produce games. It would be very hard for someone else to gear up what they have. JJP is doing this because it's a love of his and he also has a lot of base resources, but others who don't have either a lot of real estate and tools or loads of money, could probably not enter the market competitively.

I don't really think licenses has that much to do with it. If you're the only player in a market, you could probably get by without having to have licenses. It's not like you can't create a pinball theme around a popular concept without having to license someone else's IP. There are plenty of generic or public domain things you could do. Some of the most popular themes of all time are non-IP like sports, pool, bowling, card games, fairy tales, myths and legends, etc.
 
yes, that is true. i look back at the early 80's sterns and my god! the art,the features,the innovations they came up with. now its one movie or band after the other. not that i dont love playing them,i do.i just long for someone to think outside the box and take a chance.

I'm curious, other than Orbitor 1 (which was a total dog play wise), what has Stern done that was innovative? From the moment they went solid state, they copied Bally's technology and even ended up having to pay royalties to their competitors for copying their technology.

I'm not trying to bash Stern. I'm just making an observation: they're not a company that IMO has ever innovated. If so, I'd like to hear what they've done that hasn't been done by other companies before?
 
i was speaking of game play features and sounds. like the ocean sounds in sea witch.for the time that was pretty cool.i still think its cool.
 
It's my understanding that licensee per games is $50...certainly not a deal breaker.

A true pinball person will play a game (on route) regardless of theme if it's a decent pin. Once that comes to mine for me is NASCAR. I completely despise that license...but kind of like the uniqueness of the game play.

The kid going to the movie will probably only play a game because of its theme or license. IMHO that $50 is made back with the right machine in the right place.

This was real obvious when my niece had her 14th b-day at my house last year. About 20 kids...there were kids waiting to play FGY...yet MB, AFM, Wh20, ToM sit idle.

As a pinball person my favorite games are non-licensed games. Unfortunately I still think the license is a necessary evil.
 
Stern were the first ones to use 7 segment displays. Other than that I can't think of anything they were innovative with. The old Stern anyway.

If I were the new Stern I probably wouldn't be doing un-licensed themes either. Virtually any original theme you can think of could be a licensed theme making it way more recognizable. If you're in business to make money then licensed themes are the way to go (IMO). People complain about the non-licensed themes but look at what people consider to be the best games ever. Mostly licensed themes. I have to wonder why people care so much about this topic. What is really so much cooler about an original theme? I just don't see it. At least there are new machines being produced. That in itself is a miracle.
 
As a businessman I respect what Gary Stern has done. It's not exciting, but he's managed to keep the company going even though his market is continuing to diminish. I suspect, like Gene and JJP, he probably owns a lot of property and has a pretty low overhead now, otherwise he might not be able to cover expenses. Making licensed themes is just being on "auto-pilot." But it's a plan that has been working.

I still contend though, that nobody seems to be trying to innovate. A 2012 pinball machine basically does what a 1992 pinball machine did. If you go back 20 years, you'll find there were leaps and bounds in functionality and features between different generations of games.
 
We had bought lots of non-licensed theme pinballs back in the day and they earned us a ton of money.

We bought lots of High Speed, Eight Ball Deluxe, Flight 2000, Sea Witch. They were reasonably priced, fairly reliable, plus they earned good money. That's why the boss kept buying more of each machine.
 
I know this topic has been brought up many times. However,it seems to me that pinball manufacturer x could save quite a bit on development of a game by not having to shell out big money for licencing rights and voice over work etc. everyone always says that the ops aren't buying unlicensed themes. that's because no one is making them.add to that most new pins are purchased by private collectors any way.if you look at the a list of 90's games. all but Adams family,Twilight Zone, are original themes. just my own thoughts on the subject. add Indiana Jones and sttng to the licenced theme list

One of the biggest problems with a non-licensed theme is that there is nothing to distinguish the games currently produced from games made 20 years ago. Think about it, one of the very few indicators that Tron, IM, etc. are NEW games is the theme.

JJP would be in this boat too but he wisely chucked the meso-neolithic DMD for the LCD screen. People argue up and down whether or not it will enhance gameplay. Regardless, it is a BIG billboard that shouts "I'm not the same pinball you played back in high school, come try me."
 
People would line up around the block to buy or play a cool non-licensed horror pin or sci-fi pin. Haunted House 2012 with all they could do now?

Ha Ha Ha - Haunted House is a widebody with three playfields and eight flippers. I have my doubts it would be topped these days!
 
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