Well if you do get it sorted out I'll buy one to support your efforts even though I don't have one *yet*. I see them posted pretty often on CL here, though. Haven't tried to get one because of the reliability issues I've heard about.
Bally Home Model replacement boards
- Thread starter HHaase
- Start date
KenLayton
In Memoriam
The main sections that were problematic on these power supply boards:
The +5 volt and +12 volt on the Series 1.
The +5 volt on the Series 2. Note that Series 2 does not have a +12 volt section.
Badly designed power supplies were what was damaging the gameboards in these machines. The regulators failed and went over-voltage.
The +5 volt and +12 volt on the Series 1.
The +5 volt on the Series 2. Note that Series 2 does not have a +12 volt section.
Badly designed power supplies were what was damaging the gameboards in these machines. The regulators failed and went over-voltage.
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HHaase
Active member
Good to know what the failure points were. I noticed that the series II also dropped one of the two 5v regulators, feeding power to the display LED's.
Probably not going to change the 18v circuit much either way other than a more robust transistor on it. May try out a couple MOSFETS instead, but who knows.
Will probably start testing some stuff in the next couple of weeks hopefully.
-Hans
Probably not going to change the 18v circuit much either way other than a more robust transistor on it. May try out a couple MOSFETS instead, but who knows.
Will probably start testing some stuff in the next couple of weeks hopefully.
-Hans
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HHaase
Active member
Really knocking against the limits of the basic PCB design software I was trying to use. I'm finding I have to build most of the components myself, particularly the fuse holders and the oddball sized MOLEX headers.
One of them was tedious, since it has no autorouter, but was easy to build new components. Works, but slow.
The other..... I uninstalled the POS. Great autorouter, but a nightmare to navigate the component libraries. Even worse for designing new components to put into the board layout.
Trying a couple new ones now instead.
-Hans
One of them was tedious, since it has no autorouter, but was easy to build new components. Works, but slow.
The other..... I uninstalled the POS. Great autorouter, but a nightmare to navigate the component libraries. Even worse for designing new components to put into the board layout.
Trying a couple new ones now instead.
-Hans
KenLayton
In Memoriam
Why not just buy the 24 pin 'snapable' male Molex .156 headers and just break off the size you need?
You can also buy the Littlefuse PC board mount fuseholders like Williams used on the WPC power driver boards and use them for your fuseholders.
Both of the above items are usually stocked at Great Plains Electronics.
You can also buy the Littlefuse PC board mount fuseholders like Williams used on the WPC power driver boards and use them for your fuseholders.
Both of the above items are usually stocked at Great Plains Electronics.
OP
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HHaase
Active member
It's not the actual parts that's a pain in the butt.... it's having to design a "footprint" for the parts on the circuit board in the layout software. Lots of little dimensions that have to be fiddled with to get the holes and solder pads all the right size and in the right spacings, then the silkscreen borders and labels. And a lot of the components that we use in pinball are uncommon in the electronics world, so I have to draw up a lot of custom stuff that isn't in the parts libraries already.
-Hans
-Hans
Lindsey
Well-known member
I use Eagle. I've used it to design tons of boards and have built dozens of custom parts with it. Originally I was afraid of making my own libraries but once I got the hang of it I started making most of the parts myself. Not only is it the best way to get exactly what you want but like you mentioned there are a lot of pinball pieces that won't be in any library. Like .156" headers for example. Building custom libraries is going to be unavoidable regardless of the design software you use.
The autorouter works well but for a power supply I would probably manually route most of it. The CPU board will be a different story.
Max board size could be a problem:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/
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HHaase
Active member
I had looked at Eagle, and the board size limits were a killer for me. The freeware size is tiny, and the basic version size is still too small. Even the power supply wouldn't fit on a board in the basic version. I just can't justify right now spending over $500 on a software package for this kind of work to get a usable board dimension. Maybe in the future if I do enough board design, but definitely not now.
I think I have a workable schematic and layout built using ExpressPCB. I'm stuck using them for the printing, but for the volume I'm doing the rates aren't too bad I don't think. I'm looking at around $28 per board on a 4 board prototype run, but I have a lot of review and breadboard testing to do before I go ahead with that.
Unfortunately I just couldn't find an 18v switcher that worked for this application at a reasonable cost, so I'm going to have to stick with a linear regulator and power transistor layout like the original. But I am bumping them up a considerable amount in their ratings, which should help things out if that's one of the big weak points.
-Hans
I think I have a workable schematic and layout built using ExpressPCB. I'm stuck using them for the printing, but for the volume I'm doing the rates aren't too bad I don't think. I'm looking at around $28 per board on a 4 board prototype run, but I have a lot of review and breadboard testing to do before I go ahead with that.
Unfortunately I just couldn't find an 18v switcher that worked for this application at a reasonable cost, so I'm going to have to stick with a linear regulator and power transistor layout like the original. But I am bumping them up a considerable amount in their ratings, which should help things out if that's one of the big weak points.
-Hans
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HHaase
Active member
Oh, and VERY preliminary pricing estimates put it about in the same price range as all the other guys for their power supplies.... likely an fair amount lower actually due to the more simple circuits involved.
Fuse clips sure do add up though, that's for sure.
-Hans
Fuse clips sure do add up though, that's for sure.
-Hans
Lindsey
Well-known member
What are the dimensions of the board?
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HHaase
Active member
76mm x 127mm It's mostly the 6 fuses that are making it so big.
I had thought of maybe using blade fuses such ATO's, ATM's or the really small ones, but availability on them is sketchy for under 5 amp sizes. Last thing I want to do is start making people search for oddball stuff for something as simple as fuses.
-Hans
Lindsey
Well-known member
So that's approx. 3"x5" and you're paying $28? That's close to $2/square inch. Did you shop around? If you decide to go into larger production I can do them a lot cheaper than that. I'll just need the gerber files.
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HHaase
Active member
The $28 per board price is only for the first run of 4 prototypes, IIRC the price from them for 50 boards is in the $8-$9 range depending on the final size. I haven't shopped around much yet, just looking at ballpark figures at the moment. But no way am I committing to 50 or more boards unless I know the layout is good.
-Hans
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HHaase
Active member
Ahhh, I think I may have found a switcher to use for the 18v line finally. Excellent.
Of course, this puts me back a few steps..... but oh well. That's how it goes.
-Hans
Of course, this puts me back a few steps..... but oh well. That's how it goes.
-Hans
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HHaase
Active member
Ok, I'm confused at why Bally does some stuff.
They have a pair of 5v lines going from the power supply to the CPU board. One is the 5v logic, the other is the 5v that powers the score LED's.
Now, the 5v logic supply is regulated via a 78M05 regulator.... only a .5A regulator. However the LED power is unregulated. Straight from the transformer, through a bridge and capacitor, and off it goes. Odd. Since I'm bumping up considerably in the capacity of the 5v regulator, I'm going to run both of these off a single MC34167 regulator. It's good for 5 amps after all.
I also have a HUGE question on this as some of this info makes no sense on the schematics. It says that the transformer is running at 18v going into the power supply.... but the solenoids somehow are at 22v going out?
Anybody with access to one of these who can measure what the ACTUAL input AC voltage is on the imput connector at pins 7 and 9.
-Hans
They have a pair of 5v lines going from the power supply to the CPU board. One is the 5v logic, the other is the 5v that powers the score LED's.
Now, the 5v logic supply is regulated via a 78M05 regulator.... only a .5A regulator. However the LED power is unregulated. Straight from the transformer, through a bridge and capacitor, and off it goes. Odd. Since I'm bumping up considerably in the capacity of the 5v regulator, I'm going to run both of these off a single MC34167 regulator. It's good for 5 amps after all.
I also have a HUGE question on this as some of this info makes no sense on the schematics. It says that the transformer is running at 18v going into the power supply.... but the solenoids somehow are at 22v going out?
Anybody with access to one of these who can measure what the ACTUAL input AC voltage is on the imput connector at pins 7 and 9.
-Hans
KenLayton
In Memoriam
I just checked it on the one across the street from me.
I'm reading 19.5 VAC with the transformer connected to the power supply board.
The DC output to the coils is reading 25.0 VDC
Keep in mind my Radio Shack digital meter is NOT a true RMS type.
I'm reading 19.5 VAC with the transformer connected to the power supply board.
The DC output to the coils is reading 25.0 VDC
Keep in mind my Radio Shack digital meter is NOT a true RMS type.
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HHaase
Active member
Excellent! I needed the numbers in order figure out the resistors on the 18v regulator. I was thinking maybe not even running a regulator for the 18v circuit, if the voltages were low enough, but then it would be running 25v into the lamp matrix. The boards could take it, but it would hurt the lamp longevity too much I think. I'll have to leave it in there.
-Hans
-Hans
Pinball Wizard
Well-known member
Good work hacking away at this! I still haven't had the chance to check out my machine to identify it as series 1 or 2. But if it is series 2, I'd be interested in helping out by testing a prototype board.
Again, great work!
Again, great work!
OP
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HHaase
Active member
Appreciate the support 
At times, it's been a fun project so far. Other times I'm ready to give up and go back to fingerpainting.
I haven't done math like this in over a decade, and the capacitance formula for the regulator is driving me bonkers. No way around it either, switching regulators need the correct capacitors. I've got a basic schematic pretty much finalized now, I just need to get those capacitor values down. Can't finish up the layout until I know the dimensions.
-Hans
At times, it's been a fun project so far. Other times I'm ready to give up and go back to fingerpainting.
I haven't done math like this in over a decade, and the capacitance formula for the regulator is driving me bonkers. No way around it either, switching regulators need the correct capacitors. I've got a basic schematic pretty much finalized now, I just need to get those capacitor values down. Can't finish up the layout until I know the dimensions.
-Hans
Pinball Wizard
Well-known member
Well, I finally had a chance to look at my fireball, and it is a series 1, so I guess I'm stuck fixing what got for now. Let me know if I can help out on you getting a series 1 power board replacement together.
Perhaps an adapter board so that only one power board for both models or are voltages different?
Perhaps an adapter board so that only one power board for both models or are voltages different?
