Bally Black Jack bumpers/flippers etc. not working.

[XNIF]

Bally Black Jack bumpers/flippers etc. not working.

Hello !

I bought an old not working Black Jack to learn pinrepair. It was without MPU.
I replaced the MPU with a AS 2518 -35 MPU (not the original 17) and soldered the wires with a guide and put in new roms. Now it starts up... all bells ring. And when i put in a dime it rings and starts. But there is no ball coming and if i just put in the ball by hand, none of the bumpers and flippers work. Any suggestions here? I was working with pinrepair but that site want my money now! If anyone could point me in the right direction it would be great! I think it might be the powerconnectors or fuse on my solenoid driver board ...? or is that stupid thinking.....

EDIT: I forgot to mention that in selftest all the bumpers and flippers seem to work including the ball comes infront of the plunger. It's only in the game that it does not work. The MPU it self seems to be ok according to selftest.

 

[XNIF]

I think it misses the 7th flash on selftest. I missed that, coz i thought that first brief flash was the first, but it seems that is something else. So .... i guess it's something with the 43 volts. I meausured the fuse that seems to be ok. Also the selftest on solenoids work so it can't be the fuse. So it has to be something with U10 or U14... ?

 

[Lindsey]

The 7th flash checks the zero cross detector.

With the game on:

Check for +43V at pin 15 of connector J4 on the MPU. Then check for approx. 21.5VDC at TP3 on the MPU. If you have 43V but not 21.5V then R113 has gone open. Then take a logic probe and check for a strobing pulse at U10 pin 18. If you don't get a pulse then something is bad in the zero cross detector circuit. If you do get a pulse and still no 7th flask then re-seat the PIA. If that works then you've probably got a bad socket at U10. If not then swap the 2 PIAs (U10 and U11) and see what happens.

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that after the 7th flash the LED will usually glow dim but it won't do that if there is no 7th flash. You could also do a manual reset (short CPU pins 39 and 40) to give you a longer reset which will allow you to count the flashes more easily (LED comes on during reset). That's another reason that I like the Dallas DS1811 conversion. Makes the reset much longer.

 

[XNIF]

Thanks! I solved it! After testing it several times with several guides, all seemed ok. So i was puzzled... then i checked the cabinet.. and saw the tilt wire was hitting the ring!! Damnit! I removed it and now it works!! It was on tilt the moment i started it! Now just one flipper does not work (was not working during solenoid test also) so maybe a burned coil or something and a lot of lightbulbs are not working. So i am off to continue this quest!!
I am very happy !

 

[Lindsey]

Thanks! I solved it! After testing it several times with several guides, all seemed ok. So i was puzzled... then i checked the cabinet.. and saw the tilt wire was hitting the ring!! Damnit! I removed it and now it works!! It was on tilt the moment i started it! Now just one flipper does not work (was not working during solenoid test also) so maybe a burned coil or something and a lot of lightbulbs are not working. So i am off to continue this quest!!
I am very happy !

Good work. So there WAS 7 flashes but the game would just go into tilt.

 

[XNIF]

Good work. So there WAS 7 flashes but the game would just go into tilt.

Yes! I read there was a brief flash first and that i should not count that flash... well and that happened. There was a flash.... a longer pause and then 6 other flashes faster after eachother. Guess i misunderstood!

 

[Lindsey]

Yes! I read there was a brief flash first and that i should not count that flash... well and that happened. There was a flash.... a longer pause and then 6 other flashes faster after eachother. Guess i misunderstood!

It happens. The flashes can be a little confusing when you're not used the counting them. If in doubt, just do a manual reset and it should be easier to count the flashes.

 

[XNIF]

Well i fixed the bumper and flipper problems, i have a new problem with my lights.
I have replaced the bulbs but they do not work. Could this be blamed on a connector problem on the rectifier board? It's strange that all the lights that i circled on the pic do not work. Anyone suggestions?

 

[blitz_8255]

Do you have voltage at the lamp sockets? If you ground the non-common side ( the wire that jumps from socket to socket is the common side ) of the lamp socket the light should light. If they don't light you have a supply problem, if they do then, any of the pins of J1, J2, J3 on the lamp driver board that have wires in them are the lamp drive lines. If you jump them to ground the coorisponding lamp should light. If they work by grounding them here you have a board problem, if not it is a continuity problem to the sockets. Good luck and welcome to the world of pinballs!

 

[Lindsey]

Do you have voltage at the lamp sockets? If you ground the non-common side ( the wire that jumps from socket to socket is the common side ) of the lamp socket the light should light. If they don't light you have a supply problem, if they do then, any of the pins of J1, J2, J3 on the lamp driver board that have wires in them are the lamp drive lines. If you jump them to ground the coorisponding lamp should light. If they work by grounding them here you have a board problem, if not it is a continuity problem to the sockets. Good luck and welcome to the world of pinballs!

I agree. Check for positive voltage at those lamps first. I would suspect you have a daisy-chain switched illumination wire that has become disconnected or even a disconnected connector at the lamp driver board. Make sure that all of the headers on the lamp driver board have connectors attached.

 

[XNIF]

Thank you all for trying to help me!

Well an update :


I found a partly burned connector on the transformer board.... I so i decided to do a complete rebuild. I took me two nights... And now i am done. I also replace the big connector on the wire. But no luck...it works but my problem is the same. Tomorrow i will replace the two remaining connectors on the wire for the transformer, but i have the feeling that it will not solve my problem.

I also tried grounding them but the lights just do not get any power. I will follow the wires to see what connector is connected to those lights.....
Ill keep you posted!

 

[XNIF]

Little update. After a a break i took from the machine working on a new machine i decided to see if i can fix the problems it has with the non-working segment of the lamps on the playfield:

I found the lamp assignment here : http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/bj_sl.htm

And now i puzzled! It seems that all those lamps are on different connectors and use different chips.

Like for instance Q11 and Q36 that represent lamps that are not working. The are on J1 and J3 and use U3 and U1. That is kinda weird, coz i thought it was going to be a bad chip. But since those bunch of lights are all located next to eachother it might be something else?

There are no voltages on the lamps, i grounded them and they were still not working....

I realized that i used an old bally pac man -33 board that i converted to a -17 board. I read the boards for Pac Man had a somewhat different layout and onlty had 6 flashes for the MPU. Can it be something in the MPU?

 

[examiner]

Don't get hung up on the lamp matrix or the mpu at this point in time. You've got a basic power problem it would appear.

You need to have voltage going to those sockets at all times. The MPU doesn't send "current" to the lamps, it activates ground which causes the lamps to light. That ground signal is what is coming across all the different connectors you referenced, and isn't the issue at this point.

No voltage = current problem, not ground problem. All of the power for those lights should be coming off a few wires from one of the boards. Trace them back and look for the breaks like blitz and lindsey suggested. The pin on the board. Cracked solder joint on the back of the pin. The connectors on the board. Wiring breaks at any point in the multitude of places the circuit is daisy chained under the playfield.

So, don't go off track. They gave you good advice, and it's the first thing you should check at this point. They'll never work until you get current flowing to them - and there aren't any chips on the board controlling that.

 

[Lindsey]

I realized that i used an old bally pac man -33 board that i converted to a -17 board. I read the boards for Pac Man had a somewhat different layout and onlty had 6 flashes for the MPU. Can it be something in the MPU?

As long as you replaced the diode with the appropriate resistor and the MPU is booting with 7 flashes and going into attract mode I wouldn't think it's an MPU related problem.

As far as the lamps go my original advice should still apply.

 

[dyrwolf]

if they do then, any of the pins of J1, J2, J3 on the lamp driver board that have wires in them are the lamp drive lines. If you jump them to ground the coorisponding lamp should light. If they work by grounding them here you have a board problem, if not it is a continuity problem to the sockets. Good luck and welcome to the world of pinballs!

Do you mean to remove the connector (female) then jump a pin to ground?

I forgot to note: I am working on KISS and Star Trek, old Ballys.

When I jump the non common side to ground, the bulbs that are out light, but they are brighter than the rest.

 

[blitz_8255]

do not remove the connector it has the wires that goes to the lights. they will be brighter than the others but it's OK. if they light with the jumper your board is malfunctioning.

 

[XY4u]

If you are still having problems with the MPU controlled lamps. Find what the name of the lamp(s) and then look at the schematic to tell you which transistor is used for the bad lamp(s) on the lamp driver board. It has been some time since I have worked on your rev level of boards but in the book (you can find online) it will tell you which leg of the transistor to ground to force the light on. So if your jumper is connected to a ground loop on the lamp driver bd and the game is on you will turn on the light each time you touch the(correct) leg of the transistor. If this works your problem is on the lamp driver bd. Most likely just a driver transistor (the same one you grounded to force the light on).

 

[Lindsey]

If you are still having problems with the MPU controlled lamps. Find what the name of the lamp(s) and then look at the schematic to tell you which transistor is used for the bad lamp(s) on the lamp driver board. It has been some time since I have worked on your rev level of boards but in the book (you can find online) it will tell you which leg of the transistor to ground to force the light on. So if your jumper is connected to a ground loop on the lamp driver bd and the game is on you will turn on the light each time you touch the(correct) leg of the transistor. If this works your problem is on the lamp driver bd. Most likely just a driver transistor (the same one you grounded to force the light on).

You could also put the game into lamp test and use a logic probe to test all the SCRs.

You're thinking of SCRs, not transistors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon-controlled_rectifier

There are no voltages on the lamps, i grounded them and they were still not working....

Like I said before. If you don't have positive voltage at the lamps then the wire that daisy-chains power to all those lamps probably came off somewhere.

 

[dyrwolf]

I went to test the KISS for the lamps, and none of the transistors have collector tabs to ground against to check the lamp (per the repair procedures book). I moved to Star Trek, which is a solinoid issue. I grounded the 2 bad transistor tabs and the two solenoids that would not work activiated.

I noticed that the lamp driver board in star trek had collector tabs on most, but not all of the 3 columns of transistors. Some lamp circuits are shown on the wiring diagram to be connected to transistors that are not in the 3 rows. These are barrel shaped.

1. What is next step on the solenoid issue. If the solenoid activates I know the coil and circuit are good. I assume I follow diagnostic procedure symptom I?

2. If the lamp driver transistors lack collector tabs, what do I connect my test lead to?

3. What is the significance of the two different shapes of transistors (barrel vs. flat, some flat with collector tab, some lack the tab).

Thanks

4. What are significance of the wires (look like staples) going through the boards all over the place? Are these potential test points?

 

[XNIF]

a little update... i replaced the lampboard for one i got for almost free... and the problems are exactly the same. I guess this helps me in where to look. Next thing i am going to do is check the complete daisy chain... this was the first thing i should have checked. But you know how it is... i was really convinced it was the lampboard. *sigh*